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Old 19-05-2015, 17:26   #106
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Re: Inboard Or Outboard?

What's the consensus on the safety of gasoline on-board storage for out-board motor?
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Old 19-05-2015, 17:50   #107
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Re: Inboard Or Outboard?

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Originally Posted by EllisElectric View Post
What's the consensus on the safety of gasoline on-board storage for out-board motor?

Do you know how many outboard boats there are out there? Now how many do you hear of exploding?
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Old 19-05-2015, 20:05   #108
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Re: Inboard Or Outboard?

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What's the consensus on the safety of gasoline on-board storage for out-board motor?
99% of cruising boats carry enough gasoline to burn the boat to the waterline...with just a modest amount of common sense, they don't.

In the context of catamarans, there is an excellent solution to the worst possible case. Bottom vented tanks on the bridge deck. No one is paranoid about gasoline powered cars because the tanks are bottom vented. In the rare case of a leak, the fuel drops to the ground and any fumes blow away. By using a bottom vented tank in a catamaran, you get the same effect.

Bottom venting is very difficult to do in monohulls, so more care must be taken to avoid leaks (not that you want leaks on any boat regardless of fuel system).
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Old 20-05-2015, 01:27   #109
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Re: Inboard Or Outboard?

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Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
99% of cruising boats carry enough gasoline to burn the boat to the waterline...with just a modest amount of common sense, they don't.

In the context of catamarans, there is an excellent solution to the worst possible case. Bottom vented tanks on the bridge deck. No one is paranoid about gasoline powered cars because the tanks are bottom vented. In the rare case of a leak, the fuel drops to the ground and any fumes blow away. By using a bottom vented tank in a catamaran, you get the same effect.

Bottom venting is very difficult to do in monohulls, so more care must be taken to avoid leaks (not that you want leaks on any boat regardless of fuel system).
Right. As long as you don't carry it inside the hull volume (shudder), it's just like keeping gasoline at home or in your car.

I keep a 20 liter canister of petrol -- fuel supply for my 25 horsepower dinghy engine -- behind my transom platform -- outside the hull volume, where any vapors or spills can drain harmlessly away.

There are of course many thousands of boats powered by gasoline which have gasoline in their main fuel tanks, inside the main hull volume. This is also not exactly a death trap -- why God invented bilge blowers, etc. -- but certainly nice to avoid it if possible.
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Old 20-05-2015, 01:32   #110
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Re: Inboard Or Outboard?

There is a thread on CF re fuel storage:"Safe Storage of Gas Cans on a Small Boat".



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Old 20-05-2015, 01:51   #111
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Re: Inboard Or Outboard?

The insurance industry must have it all wrong then, I did simple google search:

Boat Insurance Rates | Yacht Insurance | Global Marine Insurance
http://www.globalmarineinsurance.com...nsurance-rates
Sep 4, 2013 - Water vessels with diesel engines will usually have lower insurance premiums than boats with gasoline engines. Similarly, outboard motors are ...

The Frugal Mariner-- Boat Insurance
www.frugal-mariner.com/Insurance.html
Boats with inboard diesel engines are generally less expensive to insure than ones with gasoline engines. We encountered this poor fellow in Adam's Creek just ...

The Price of Ownership | Discover Boating
http://www.discoverboating.com/resou...cle.aspx?id=60
Since surveyors are not licensed, you should check with your insurance agent or ... A boat with a diesel engine instead of gasoline gets a discount, and other ...




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Old 20-05-2015, 01:53   #112
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Re: Inboard Or Outboard?

Please let us have details, pictures, theories about storage of gasoline on sail cruising catamaran powered by gasoline outboards.


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Old 20-05-2015, 02:22   #113
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Re: Inboard Or Outboard?

100 accurate, absolutely agree, I have had both outboard driven catamaran (PDQ 36) and a St Francis 44, taken both a few thousand miles, and owned both types for about 10 years each.

Simply trying to get folding props for my yanmar 3JH3E engine is more than the cost of completely replacing an outboard. And you still have galvanic corrosion, drag, catching things on the sail drive, etc. Yanmars are wonderful engines but the costs are incredible compared to an outboard.

And I give up huge areas in the hulls for the engines vs. an outboard locker. And btw, lets refine that point. Diesel engines in the hull. Smoke, diesel, fuel lines, spills from solvents and coolant and oil all in the hull. Outboards, by contrast, have engines, fuel and fuel lines completely away from the hulls. No chance of diesel fuel in the bilges, oil on the floor or smoke in the cabin.

And as others have stated, when I needed to work on my outboard, I put eye bolts through the fly wheel and lifted them in the air with ridiculous ease using my mainsheet as a block and tackle. My engine literally hanging in front of me. I didn't even have to get off my ass to access the other side of the engine, I simply used a single finger and rotated the engine. My diesel engine I need to crawl over the top and use my fingers to feel where the dipstick is.

And yes, the rule of thumb is to replace an outboard after 1000 hours before the engine costs become too great. The rule of thumb on diesels is to replace the entire boat before the engine costs become too much. Which would you rather do????? Or, put another way, why do you really think those previous boat owners are selling their diesel powered boats??

And as to replacing the diesels, OMG, really? Are we truly thinking there is even a slight comparison? An outboard you put in a dinghy, a diesel you hire a team of mechanics with a crane. An outboard, even a larger one capable of pushing a 40+ ft boat, would cost 3-5k. Your diesel will be about 20k each. And if the new diesel has issues, bring the entire boat back to the port where you had it put in. If the outboard has issues you ferry it to the local outboard service center a couple miles away from practically any anchorage in the world.

Regarding the suitability of outboards,

I've been in 70 knot winds motoring with outboards on the PDQ, they did fine. I've had to recharge the batteries using outboards, they did fine (though I used solar panels). If I remember right they put out 10 amps each, 20 amps total, perfectly fine for a small boat. Those who keep dissing them as propulsion had a great sales team work on them ahead of time for the typical catamaran.

The unfortunate thing is there aren't many who make catamarans with outboard propulsion. Schionning is one of the few really.

I wouldn't simply take an outboard powered cataraman, after having both for a decade, I would LOOK for an outboard powered catamaran.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arsenelupiga View Post
engine room is large and fitting tank there should not be difficult. Replacing 2x diesels will be 70k in sydney. I do not think outboard installation anything close to that.

It is not the weight that bothers. But :

water in saildrive, when you have to run and haul out etc $$$$$
outside seals give up and boat sinks. There are 2 seals, but again you have emergency. $$$$$$$
saildrive leg & propeller antifoul $$$$$$
no need for folding props $$$$$$
feeling like a hostage

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Old 20-05-2015, 02:39   #114
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Re: Inboard Or Outboard?

What outboards you had with st Francis and how did it handle under power?


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Old 20-05-2015, 02:49   #115
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Re: Inboard Or Outboard?

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What outboards you had with st Francis and how did it handle under power?


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He has diesels on his St Francis 44 and outboards on a earlier vessel. PQD 36
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Old 20-05-2015, 03:13   #116
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Re: Inboard Or Outboard?

So after the defense of outboards by schoonerdog he got cat with inboards?


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Old 20-05-2015, 03:17   #117
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Re: Inboard Or Outboard?

I think the cost comparison is a moot point at best. I.e. my yanmars with sail drives are 12k. A new 15hp is 3k. If you can do the work yourself as many of you can we will exclude labor for now. The yanmars should go 7k to 10 hours w good maintenance. The outboards 3k if a 4 stroke. The problem is they rust out or degrade externally in most cases before the powerhead is actually bad. The diesels have a longer life imhop, due to the nature of the beast, better protected in most cases,more durable against the elements protected by their own oil leaks in some cases lol. It seems to cheaper to replace an old crusty outboard with a bad tilt tube and carb issues than repair so many people do so. The flip side is an injector pump can fail. Etc and cost as much as a new ob/ sigh
So if the ratio is 3 or 4 to 1 ob replacement vs diesel its still pretty pointless. Factor in fuel economy over a few years and the diesel may win. The flip side is heck yeah easier to work on an ob, fuel isn't a biggie we had a production cat w a 60 gal gasoline tank under the port berth and never smelled it. We did smell the holding tank once in a while but never gasoline. Less drag and running gear is nice but I think theres no clear 100% winner unless your plans are extreme like (Im circumnavigating, or all I do is coastal or i go cruising around areas w plenty of fuel etc) i think the real decision is , does the cat tick all your boxes. Galley, cockpit, decklayout arrangements, etc etc. I think engine type is not a huge factor in most cases.
Btw we have had 5 cats 3 w diesels 2 w outboards ( though one was little) I worked a whole lot less on the ob powered cat and sailed it more

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Old 20-05-2015, 03:40   #118
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Re: Inboard Or Outboard?

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Originally Posted by schoonerdog View Post
And as to replacing the diesels, OMG, really? Are we truly thinking there is even a slight comparison? An outboard you put in a dinghy, a diesel you hire a team of mechanics with a crane. An outboard, even a larger one capable of pushing a 40+ ft boat, would cost 3-5k. Your diesel will be about 20k each.
While I have not yet to replace a diesel I have had one repaired (almost rebuilt) in Spain on my previous boat, a Lagoon 410. Engines were 2x Yanmar 3GM30

Taking it out took some hours preparation by me (to cleanly remove ceiling liners and access panel) and 1/2hr by one mechanic to disconnect plus 10 minutes for the guy with a forklift.
Bringing it back in was 20 minutes for the forklift and 1hr for a mechnic to marry it with the saildrive, reconnect all hoses and wires. Plus some time for starting, testing, seatrial, etc

Cost was ~3k Euro, a new one would have been around 9k Euro. So clearly not as bad as indicated!

That works only as long as you can replace just the engine like for like. As soon as you upgrade, change model or manufacturer, need a new saildrive, etc the cost goes up as you need more work done and need a haulout.
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Old 20-05-2015, 03:49   #119
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Re: Inboard Or Outboard?

For me the inboard/outboard debate is not an emotional one! Wjat wirks better is safer, gives more advantages gets jigher marks in my book, its that simple. Compare the mono vs multi repeated debates where pure raw emotions fog the clear analysis we need to make decision where to invest our money!

Adding to that, I have years experience with both outboard and inboard powered cats, the inboard powere one 10 years and Inwouldnt go vack to the 4 stroke outboard on my former cat. The reason, it is a great feeling to wake up in the morning and start the marine diesel engine, enjoy its quiet if you insulated the engine chamber well and set of smooth motoring until you are where you can rause your sails. You know your electrical power is replenished, you have reliable engine that you can start if conditions require it. Because my i boards are in their own engine room and no one sleeps above them no smell, smoke, and such noticeable. It us a pleasure to go through pre-cruise check list, the true hulls, is the engine ckean, no leaks of water, oil in the engine room bilge. Happy sailing all around!

My outboard powered cat was actually very well set up, it was a Tiki 30, and had a flybridge stern located outboard well. In good wave action the nirmally dry well and engine would slosh water onto the lid covering the well, affecting the outboard a beautifull Johnson 15 hp 4-stroke. The outbiard charged my batteries at 10Amp hext to my solar panels, but when water slished around in engine well the charging got cut. Ok I only used the outbiard to get in and out of port, leave moorings, or gunkhole close to ciast or and in ciral reef channels. I enjoyed that Tiki but realized that for serious cruising I would need what I got since 2007 a cat with inboards.

I am curioys why no obe picked up on the position of the yacht ibsurers whose website I posted earlier.


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Old 20-05-2015, 04:35   #120
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Re: Inboard Or Outboard?

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Please let us have details, pictures, theories about storage of gasoline on sail cruising catamaran powered by gasoline outboards.


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I believe it's already been mentioned, but really simple to place the tanks on the bridge deck and provide a vent in the floor, so any leaks or fumes goes out the bottom and away from the boat.
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