Inboard Or Outboard?

[leftbrainstuff]

Originally Posted by Saildriver44

Hi, I'm new here but I'm in the market for a 36-42 foot sailboat. As I search I find most have an inboard Diesel engine of around 25-30 hp. But...the PDQ and a few others offer outboards located in wells. I have sailed a Seawind configured like this and it seemed ok. My question is....which is better? I am very mechanically inclined and I can work on either version knowing full well the inboard can be a knuckle buster at times. I'm looking at fuel burn, maintenance, longevity versus cost, etc. I also understand the implied advantages of diesel fuel regarding safety onboard, engine life and reliability. But....which one....I'm surfing for opinions and suggestions which I may not have come up with on my own. The overall boat is my first concern but power is a serious consideration. Thanks for any and all input.

Diesel inboard is a no brainer. Outboard for the dinghy.

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[Factor]

Originally Posted by leftbrainstuff

Diesel inboard is a no brainer.

you certainly have that right. No brain.

[Goosebumps]

Brains do cone in here but why disrespect each other. I know I probably made this point before but abide with me it seems to be necessary to clarify. Can liveaboard long time cruisers who will cruise in the tropics pkease come in here and give their opininion on my view that inboard for long term tropical cruisers best, weekend cruisers outboards acceprable. To me very obvious why. The inboards are far more simple to work on mechanically if only one insusts on getting boat with engines accessibke from cockpit, preferably no one sleeping on top of them. I cannot understand why anyone would think outboards are easier to work on than inbiards. For those familiar with diesel engines, naturally aspirated ones, the fuel lead, pump system is most troublesome part and when kept in good condition, from liftpump to fuelfilters to injection pump to injector leads, question of adjusting the valves and service the injectors, not much should go wrong if you run the engines properly without abuse. Lots of us have the yanmar marine diesel engines with belt driven water pump">raw water pump for the raw water side of the cooling exchanger, fresh water internal engine. That pump and belt are headache but if replaced with 4 bar electrical pressure pump no problem one can start the pump after starting the engine making up the 5Amp power use at 12V. The saildrives are different issue but dont give exceptional problems. Try to have proper strength engine mountings so the engine cant jump loose when prop gets fouled.
I still insist that regulated float charging with high rate alternators has served me well for years solar dreams notwithstanding.
I am very insecure handling petrol in the tropics. The amount of petrol needed for the dinghy is manageable but larger volumes that would be needed for serious cruising in far away locations is not acceptable to me. My opinion is what it is, after living on the hook since 2007, and having owned an outboard powered cat before that. Giving unrealistic expectations to novice cruisers because of needing to sell outboard powered cats is highly questionabke to me. So again please other liveaboard cruisers cone in here.


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[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Goosebumps

Brains do cone in here but why disrespect each other. I know I probably made this point before but abide with me it seems to be necessary to clarify. Can liveaboard long time cruisers who will cruise in the tropics pkease come in here and give their opininion on my view that inboard for long term tropical cruisers best, weekend cruisers outboards acceprable. To me very obvious why. The inboards are far more simple to work on mechanically if only one insusts on getting boat with engines accessibke from cockpit, preferably no one sleeping on top of them. I cannot understand why anyone would think outboards are easier to work on than inbiards. For those familiar with diesel engines, naturally aspirated ones, the fuel lead, pump system is most troublesome part and when kept in good condition, from liftpump to fuelfilters to injection pump to injector leads, question of adjusting the valves and service the injectors, not much should go wrong if you run the engines properly without abuse. Lots of us have the yanmar marine diesel engines with belt driven raw water pump for the raw water side of the cooling exchanger, fresh water internal engine. That pump and belt are headache but if replaced with 4 bar electrical pressure pump no problem one can start the pump after starting the engine making up the 5Amp power use at 12V. The saildrives are different issue but dont give exceptional problems. Try to have proper strength engine mountings so the engine cant jump loose when prop gets fouled.
I still insist that regulated float charging with high rate alternators has served me well for years solar dreams notwithstanding.
I am very insecure handling petrol in the tropics. The amount of petrol needed for the dinghy is manageable but larger volumes that would be needed for serious cruising in far away locations is not acceptable to me. My opinion is what it is, after living on the hook since 2007, and having owned an outboard powered cat before that. Giving unrealistic expectations to novice cruisers because of needing to sell outboard powered cats is highly questionabke to me. So again please other liveaboard cruisers cone in here.


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This is the 3rd or 4th time you've implied that outboards are hard to maintain. They just aren't...at least no more so than a diesel drivetrain. Unless you have specific issues to clarify your point, it's a dead issue.

Likewise in a cat with bottom vented fuel tanks, it's no more of a concern than carrying a few gallons for the dingy. Light a half gal of gas or diesel and you have plenty to get a fiberglass going and nothing you do will stop the fiberglass from burning.

[Factor]

20 Litres or 200 litres makes no difference, either is sufficient to get a good burn going if the system is poorly designed or mishandled

[Goosebumps]

Thanks I made my point, you two made yours. Let others come in here to inform the prospective buyers more unbiased.


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[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by leftbrainstuff

Diesel inboard is a no brainer. Outboard for the dinghy.

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Why? Outboards have some huge, I mean really huge advantages over inboard motors:

1. Elimination of at least two holes in the boat, one a big one (for the shaft).

2. No need to haul the boat to do maintenance.

3. Zero drag under sail.

4. Much cheaper installation, like an order of magnitude.

5. Consumes no space in the interior of the boat.

6. Much easier servicing.

7. Cheaper altogether.

8. Lighter.

9. Much easier to replace.


Disadvantages are few:

1. Fuel consumption

2. Less than ideal placement of the prop

3. Hangs off your transom.

4. Doesn't generate as much electrical power



I would say that for a smaller sailing vessel which does not do that much motoring, especially a multihull, an outboard is a better solution than inboard diesel.

Now if someone would just come up with a decent, light weight outboard diesel . . .

[Goosebumps]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Why? Outboards have some huge, I mean really huge advantages over inboard motors:



1. Elimination of at least two holes in the boat, one a big one (for the shaft).



HOLES IN THE BOAT ARE ALSO ISSUE FOR WATERMAKER INSTALLATION BUT NEVER MENTIONED AS A NEGATIVEIN RELATION TO THEM, I HAVE NO ISSUE WITH TRUE HULLS AS I REGULARLY INSPECT THEM ALL, SAME REASONING WOULD MAKE YOU NOT HAVE RAW WATER INLET FOR HEAD?

2. No need to haul the boat to do maintenance.



SO YOU ONLY HAUL OUT BOAT FOR MAINTENANCE OF PROP, SAILDRIVE?


3. Zero drag under sail.



GOOD POINT OF ONLY YOU CAN SHOW ME ANYONE WHO FEELS DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SMALL POP DRAG OF INBOARD AND NO DRAGGING PROP, THE DIFFERENCE HAS BEEN BLOWN OUT OF PROPORTION BY SALES PEOPLE OF FOLDABLE PROPS AS A SALES GIMMICK, WHICH I CLAIM DONT WORK WELL AS SMALLEST CRITTERS WILL PREVENT THE FOLDING OR UNFOLDING


4. Much cheaper installation, like an order of magnitude.



THAT DEPENDS DOESNT IT, IF THE OUTBOARDS HAVE HYDRAULIC STEERING, IF THEIR MOUNTING HAS TO BE SECURE, THE FUEL FEED, THE REMOTE POWER CONTROL, NOT TO MENTION MAKING WELLS FOR THE OUTBOARDS IN THE STERN BILGES.


5. Consumes no space in the interior of the boat.



IF YOU LEAVE THE BOAT ANCHORED KNIW THAT OUTBIARDS ARE MOST WANTED ITEMS BY THIEVES AND THAT THE SIZE OF 9 TO 15HP IS SO LIGHT EASY CARRY AWAY. SO I THINK YOU WOULD USE UP LOTS OF INTERNAL SPACE TO KEEP THEM WHEN YOU LEAVE BOAT


6. Much easier servicing.



I COVERED THE EASE OF DIESEL ENGINE MAINTENANCE, THE RAW WATER/FRESH WATER HEAT EXCHANGER DOESNT GIVE EXTRA PROBLEMS, USE ANTI-FREEZE IN THE FRESH WATER. ANYONE WHO SERVICED OUTBOARD KNOWS THEY CAN BE HANDFULL.

7. Cheaper altogether.



LAST TIME I CHECKED THE OUTBOARDS WERE NOT MUCH CHEAPER THAN A SMALL MARINE DIESEL ENGINE, DEFINITELY WONT LAST THAT MANY HOURS TOO.


8. Lighter.



THE WEIGHT OF STERN MOUNTED OUTBOARDS IS IN THE WRONG PLACE FOR WEIGHT ON A CAT. TYPICALLY INBOARDS WILL BE LOCATED MORE CENTRAL. THE YANMAR 20GM WEIGHS 120KG WITH ALTERNATOR AND INJECTION PUMP! BIT HEAVIER THAN 9HP 2STROKE BUT SAME WEIGHT AS 4-STROKE!

9. Much easier to replace.





I ALREADY MENTIONED THE SAME EASE TO STEAL THEM

Disadvantages are few:



1. Fuel consumption



2. Less than ideal placement of the prop



3. Hangs off your transom.



4. Doesn't generate as much electrical power










I would say that for a smaller sailing vessel which does not do that much motoring, especially a multihull, an outboard is a better solution than inboard diesel.



Now if someone would just come up with a decent, light weight outboard diesel . . .

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[smj]

Goosebumps, all your replies are incorrect.
1 The less holes in a boat the better, period.
2 fact is you can do maintenance on the outboards lower unit without hauling out. There are also two less HUGE holes in the boat when using an outboard as opposed to saildrive.
3 Big difference between drag of no prop or outdrive in the water vs saildrive and prop.
4 Labor for replacing an existing diesel will usually equal the cost of the diesel itself. An outboard, maybe 4 hours.
5 Most modern outboard installations are done in a locker which can be locked.
6 I would probably put servicing as being about equal, but probably less expensive with an outboard.
7 Outboards are WAY cheaper than a diesel.
8 Most modern outboard installations on cats place them about 1/3 back from the stern, similar as the diesels or maybe a little farther forward. The Yanmar 2gm weighs over twice what my outboard weighs and that's not including the saildrive or prop.
I take it you would rather have twin diesels and they is your choice and I will respect that. Now how about respecting the people who would rather have outboards in their catamarans? Most cats that have outboards put far less hours on them as they are usually performance oriented boats.

[brownoarsman]

As an acquaintance on a cat here in boot key says: date an outboard, marry an inboard. The reason being that divorcing an inboard is just as hard as in real life!


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[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by smj

Goosebumps, all your replies are incorrect.
1 The less holes in a boat the better, period.
2 fact is you can do maintenance on the outboards lower unit without hauling out. There are also two less HUGE holes in the boat when using an outboard as opposed to saildrive.
3 Big difference between drag of no prop or outdrive in the water vs saildrive and prop.
4 Labor for replacing an existing diesel will usually equal the cost of the diesel itself. An outboard, maybe 4 hours.
5 Most modern outboard installations are done in a locker which can be locked.
6 I would probably put servicing as being about equal, but probably less expensive with an outboard.
7 Outboards are WAY cheaper than a diesel.
8 Most modern outboard installations on cats place them about 1/3 back from the stern, similar as the diesels or maybe a little farther forward. The Yanmar 2gm weighs over twice what my outboard weighs and that's not including the saildrive or prop.
I take it you would rather have twin diesels and they is your choice and I will respect that. Now how about respecting the people who would rather have outboards in their catamarans? Most cats that have outboards put far less hours on them as they are usually performance oriented boats.

Cats make excellent motorboats because of low drag and lack of ballast, so inboard diesels are the way to go if you spend a lot of time motoring. For bigger cruising cats of course it's the only way to go.

But for light cats or tris which don't spend much time motoring, outboards are great.

Some of my points above were not understood.

Servicing and haulouts -- let's say you have a fishing net around your prop, a bad cutless bearing, need an anode, something is broken, prop is out of balance, etc., etc., etc., etc. -- dive or haul out, if you have inboard as I do.

I can only envy the outboard guys who just tilt it up and do the job.


As to drag under sail -- light multihulls are even more sensitive to this than other boats. With inboard engines, even with good folding props, you have a lot of carp dragging in the water. You bet you can feel it.

[smj]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Cats make excellent motorboats because of low drag and lack of ballast, so inboard diesels are the way to go if you spend a lot of time motoring. For bigger cruising cats of course it's the only way to go.



But for light cats or tris which don't spend much time motoring, outboards are great.



Some of my points above were not understood.



Servicing and haulouts -- let's say you have a fishing net around your prop, a bad cutless bearing, need an anode, something is broken, prop is out of balance, etc., etc., etc., etc. -- dive or haul out, if you have inboard as I do.



I can only envy the outboard guys who just tilt it up and do the job.





As to drag under sail -- light multihulls are even more sensitive to this than other boats. With inboard engines, even with good folding props, you have a lot of carp dragging in the water. You bet you can feel it.

I agree 100%

[Goosebumps]

I rest my case, I think everyone making valud points. I regret smj can only interprete my posts as negative. Anyone else thinks my remarks made no sense, at all? Example, the two hugo holes smj mentions, are the wells for the outboards not also two big holes, what is wrong with proper true hull raw water inlet for inboard? Seems to me that difficult for some to see beyond their bias. Check my pists and you will see that if anyone convinces me properly I am the first one to kearn, and admit my short sightetness I hope I wrote that properly! To generalize that all my comments are wrong please dont ecpose your inexperience to stubbornly act like you cant accept what doesnt suit you. Convince me! Inboards for larger cats, ok from what size, I think weight of cat also important here. Take the example of Catalacs, the Catalacs 8 and 9 meter were offered with outboard or inboard diesel option. The Catalac 10 meter was only offered with inboards.


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[smj]

Originally Posted by Goosebumps

I rest my case, I think everyone making valud points. I regret smj can only interprete my posts as negative. Anyone else thinks my remarks made no sense, at all? Example, the two hugo holes smj mentions, are the wells for the outboards not also two big holes, what is wrong with proper true hull raw water inlet for inboard? Seems to me that difficult for some to see beyond their bias. Check my pists and you will see that if anyone convinces me properly I am the first one to kearn, and admit my short sightetness I hope I wrote that properly! To generalize that all my comments are wrong please dont ecpose your inexperience to stubbornly act like you cant accept what doesnt suit you. Convince me! Inboards for larger cats, ok from what size, I think weight of cat also important here. Take the example of Catalacs, the Catalacs 8 and 9 meter were offered with outboard or inboard diesel option. The Catalac 10 meter was only offered with inboards.


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You've beaten this horse to death. Yes, outboards have holes in the bridgedeck above the waterline and not below! Also my viewpoint is the less holes below the waterline the less chance of problems.
We have owned 5 catamarans with diesels, one which we changed to a single outboard. And we have owned 4 catamarans with outboards, not including the one we changed I over. I only speak from the experience we have had, and if you want to keep sailing with diesels more power to.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Cats make excellent motorboats because of low drag and lack of ballast, so inboard diesels are the way to go if you spend a lot of time motoring. For bigger cruising cats of course it's the only way to go.

But for light cats or tris which don't spend much time motoring, outboards are great.

Some of my points above were not understood.

Servicing and haulouts -- let's say you have a fishing net around your prop, a bad cutless bearing, need an anode, something is broken, prop is out of balance, etc., etc., etc., etc. -- dive or haul out, if you have inboard as I do.

I can only envy the outboard guys who just tilt it up and do the job.


As to drag under sail -- light multihulls are even more sensitive to this than other boats. With inboard engines, even with good folding props, you have a lot of carp dragging in the water. You bet you can feel it.

With modern 4 stroke outboards, they are even good for lots of motoring as they get much better efficiency than old 2 strokes and don't foul out plugs like the old units.

Even better than the faster sailing with the outboard retracted is the fact that nothing grows on them when retracted. I've seen plenty of cruising boats where the saildrives qualify as a unique ecosystem and I'm betting any efficiency advantage from the diesel is long gone spinning oyster covered props.

I'm still curious what the supposed complications with maintaining an outboard are.