Gunboat International sues Chinese boatyard

[Skip JayR]

Originally Posted by BigBeakie

Some pretty interesting thread drift going on here. Some of us were interested in discussing the issues of Chinese quality wrt Chinese boatbuilding (relating to catamaran example from OP), now we have Dutch tugs ??

Why not ? A forum is a place for chit-chat...

And it is linked... if you'd have read carefully you'd learnt, that the GB is no more produced in South Africa because of some restructurings in the shipbuilding industries.

Maybe we dont need to read all that "American company" pledges for compensation by "Chinese company" if the GB would have been produced in South Africa further on.

Anyhow.... the Taiwanese company now hits back as it was to be expected !!!

Boatbuilder responds to Gunboat International lawsuit Posted on September 21st, 2015 Written by Reagan Haynes

So dirty and boring.... like brother kids struggling on the beach about who built the biggest sand castle and who owns it.

At the end over time a big wave will come and wash all away. In 100 years nobody will remember or talk anymore about this Gunboat war.

[BigBeakie]

Skip,

Yeah quite a few people know that Gunboat left SA several years ago, that is pretty old news.

And I think you are focusing on Gunboat to the exclusion of the bigger picture, I.e. the massive problem with QA in China, and the lack of respect for IP protection of Their trading partners. There are many that have experienced this, including the Australian multihull designer case I am very familiar with.

The news needs to get out that Chinese boatbuilders are, as we say in Oz, shonky. That means unethical, poor quality work, short cutting, lack of business standards etc! You seem to be an apologist for these sorts of practices by the Chinese from some of the statements you've made, like implying it's all just part of progress or something.

Consider that buyers of these boats cannot rely on the structural engineering and design that goes into these cats. Lives are at risk, and that is not just fear mongering, that is the real situation.

I think the Chinese boatbuilding industry should be castigated and fully exposed for the "shonks" that they are, not defended by us cruisers who should value quality. Just my viewpoint.


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[beiland]

Boatyard files counter lawsuit against Gunboat | Trade Only Today

I would venture to believe Gunboat's version of the claim. These guys are ethical boatbuilders, and are likely trying to protect the good image they have established in the industry over a number of years producing a very hi-tech, performance cruising boat. I applaud them for their efforts.

BTW, there was mention of 'defective manufacture' of the 55 footer lost off of NC recently. I do not think that was so much of a defect in manufacturing as it was a miscalculation of going out in that gathering storm with a 'daysailer' type design, and then the concern of the owner wanting to get his uninitiated son off the vessel quickly when things began to get worst. The point I am making is it was not a 'defectively manufactured vessel'.

[beiland]

Just a brief outline from what I recall.

When Gunboat first started out they of course realized it was just not feasible economically to build their own facility. So they looked around locations around the world and chose a builder in SA. That worked for awhile, but remember they were building a very hi-tech composite boat that requires skilled workers to recognize and give feedback to even small steps in the layup process. This IS NOT standard fiberglass layup building process.

Builders in SA at the time were experiencing a BIG growth spurt, and the availability of skilled labors was being strained. One yard might take on some unskilled labor, apply the time and effort to train them, and then suddenly that worker was being attracted to another yard with bigger more immediate contracts. The limited skilled labor force was migrating around the yards, and I'm sure this hurt consistency. Then a yard would have to take on more unskilled labor to train and help with production. What I'm getting at is this 'revolving work force' that in many cases who thought they were now fully knowledgeable were not really so. But the yards had to make do with what they could find. ( I think some of these same things might be said about the Chinese boat builders, where even more untrained workers are utilized).

(I often said if I was having a steel boat built i would definitely consider SA, or even a normal glass boat, BUT a hi-tech composite boat would give me second concerns)

Gunboat likely experienced some problems with their first choice of builders there in SA, and chose to select another builder of set up their own (I don't recall exactly).

At some point their order books and the size of their vessel designs were getting larger. That is when they chose to look at the Chinese builders that were blossoming at the time. I believe that sent in the whole crew of trainers and overseers at the time hoping to eventually locate most all of their production to that area. Likely they ran into a number of problems sourcing proper/quality building materials, and even shipping problems getting the built vessels back from China.

Eventually they sought out good old American production figuring they could now command the pricing for their vessels that would allow for American labor charges. The NC choice likely had a number of good considerations, in addition to the State itself offering some good incentives.

They probably hoped that they could maintain production in both locations for a goodly amount of time, but likely some customers of the Chines built vessels had warranty problems that the Chinese yard would try and ignore, and this became a flash point between the two. The Chinese option at that point was 'forget Gunboat parent' that taught us these processes for their hi-tech construction, we can do it on our own.

[Skip JayR]

Why complaining ??? Let see it realistically.... and not dreaming around. I live in Germany, a country which is addressed by experts as t he most criminal/corruptive country in the world.

I remember very well in Europe the "Chinese hype", it was midth the 90ths. We had big "invitations" and important "Chinese summits" organized by European federal governments... rolling out the "red carpet" for the Chinese delegations... as China had opened its doors for foreigners and investors to start easily business with huge capital and cheap credits in China.

20 years ago it felt like the "gold rush" era of quick money making to claim the huge Chinese market of more than 1 billion consumers. Probably some in Western world made huge money having started business in China.

The German automotive industries all front BMW, Volkswagen and Mercedes already would have been bankrupcy in total if not existing the Chinese consumer market. Since the financial crisis in 2008 we had seriously signals that the whole German automative industries might collapse. Chinese consumers had been the "rescue anchor".

For some different branches in the post industrialized countries it was urgent to enter into Chinese market: A question of living or dying. No matter what Chinese corruptively methods in businesses had been. The Western company owners just ignored it, e.g. ecological standards are still very low in China. Who cares if the profit fills the bank accounts for having privately a luxury life from.

Clearly what I have seen since 2 decades let me stop to think about investing in China on my own again and again. Latest attemt I started on my own end of 2014.

All top "chinese (political) managers" still have the "party book" (earlier times called as "Mao Zedong Bible" or simply "Mao's little red book") in the pockets, so it feels for me. Red stood for "communism"... so called the army "Red Guard". It was ilustrated in Chinese PR politics with lots of pathos and heroism.


Let us remember the brutal era of Mao Zedong who is the father of the Republic of China... and who realized the Chinese Cultural Revolution.... later as following up we have seen the four periods of modernisation. (plus the 5th modernisation period from 1978 on as "democratisation").

Inspite till today I summarize China as following (just my personal opinion):

1. Chinese government pretends to be democratic, but it is no.
2. Chinese politics heavily has influence, visibly and invisibly in all living segments of Chinese population (Think about the "one child politics").
3. No single bigger business decision is done without the "go" or "no go" by Chinese government (secretly) as they even have control about the secret services and police investigation forces.
4. China is a centralistic, and still neo-communistic country (remember the "big firewall", censorship, death penalty, prison camps for intellectuals/artists/political activists/bloggers/...).
5. The neo-capitalism in China is just another tool by the KPCh (communistic party of china) with it's top leader Xi Jingping who has all relevant positions controlled by himself:
   (A) president of China
   (B) general secretary of KPCh and
   (C) board chairman of military commission.
   
   All positions of (A-C) in one person ? - Scaring and dangerous... I call it a modern dictatorship.

1 plus 6... around Xi Jingping these are the 7 guys in total controlling everything in China. The managemend board of the polit office. - They are always friendly smiling, but they are very hardliners. Proclaiming "liberal economy" but architects of an "ultra conservatively society". I'd like to call them "The 7 Double faces". (Rec.: I think its Zhang Gaoli who is missing in this picture.)


These Chinese elites are smart, as I have met them since midth the 90th. They studied and still study in Western countries at top elite universities, e.g. the daughter of Xi Jingping is doing in Harvard...

... they take all the knowledge and modern methods of leadership and management to realize the political targets following the communistic programmes.

Nowadays if you want communicate with a Chinese businessman, you need to use tunneling by VPN protocol (virtual private network), as regularly communication (e.g. via gmail) is completly blocked. That's fact. I know some IT specialists in China who trick the Chinese government for using gmail and Skype. In 2010 we had to read that Google pulls out it activities from China because of censorship.

Clearly to say: China is not a democratic country in the eyes of Western people. All is (still) controlled and centralized. We may not forget this.

How you then can expect from "normal business people" fairness as we define it ? They never learnt it, never grew up with fair business methods. - Think about how it would influence you in your thinking and feelings if you'd like to deal intern. business within a dictatorship.
Do you really think, that Chinese business people who are drilled by government education (and government controlled medias) to follow the political targets of Chinese KPCh to do businesses in the way of "fairness", respecting "intellectual property" ?

So what can we expect realistically in boat building ? All who wish that Western standards in China are seen follow an illusion.

Chinese government targets at since long to become the world super power in all segments (sciences, economics) not by using weapons and gigantic military forces.
They print trillions of dollars to invest it in own and foreign countries, e.g. China is the leader to invest in Africa. And they bought huge sums in US dollar currency so even USA government is depending on China's good will.
The monetary policy by centralized Chinese government (or shall I call it better "regime") is a very aggressive one. And the leaders still try to expand their global influence heavily.

Washington, China, and the Rise of the Renminbi: Are the Dollar’s Days as the Global Reserve Currency Numbered?

Just another form of war in the world of neo-capitalism. So is the reality... and all who demand to make "free & fair business" with China are dreamers in my understanding.

I suppose if oneself want establish as business man in China successfully he should live there for 10 years, learn quickly the complicated language, marry a Chinese woman... and then maybe he can handle it to avoid mistakes in his business process and quality of communication.
I was in a relationship with a Chinese... she even was highly educated speaking high Mandarin. For me over the time it felt like that I was in a relationship with a brainwashed robot... always friendly, but stereotypic thinking... having been manipulated in childhood (emotionally) by the education system of China. Hard times for a liberal Westener thinker to deal with. Chinese can be very stubborn so they had been educated to follow strictly orders with an immensively self discipline we know in Western world only from super sportsmen.

Later I have experienced it similarly with Chinese business men. Latest project I was planning I quit in spring this year because it was not trustworthy. - The good will exists there... no doubts about Chinese want learn to follow international standards. - But "socialization in the brain" cannot be changed so quickly by elder generation. Not a lot has changed over last 20 years those business men who had been 30 are now 50.

Maybe the new Generation in China, the very young people will give hope. Who knows... I know them from GO playing (Rec.: Go = Weiqi is the eldest strategic game board in the world, also existing in Korea (there known as Baduk) and in Japan. - All three countries, China, Korea and Japan are the world leading nations in this brain sports doing it very professoinally on highest level.)

We all can imagine how it will end now with the Gunboat "made in china". It cant be produced anymore there I like to assume. The relationship between the Taiwanese Hudson Yacht and Marine Industries and American owner is spoilt by "dirty mud" throwing at each other. And the American had thrown the mud as first in public. Strategically a big mistake by the GB owner in USA. He should have kept silently not giving any interviews about and let clear it front court.

One may never hurt the "public face" of an Asian. Its a no-go. Respect is more important than doing "correct business". As soon an Asian has the feeling that he lost his "positive image" in public and his name is damaged, he turns around and leaves. Nearby impossible to repair this relationship.
And remember, that its is a partnership with Hakes Marine in New Zealand. Look at their self presentation in their image broschure. Its prideness Hakes is representing. Even Paul Hakes has the risks to loose image and damage his own company.

Lets see !

The 2nd Gunboat G4 just was built in Netherlands... (and as I heard from rumours is test sailing already). So we can enjoy these fast boats of 2nd generation foiling around very soon ... whatever conflicts exist between USA - Taiwan and China.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3PgIvqdGd1g

P.S.: About another cultural aspect yet we have not spoken which might have had an impact indirectly onto the quality of boat building process. Hudson is a Taiwan company. There exist still heavily tensions between Taiwanese and Chinese which has some historically reasons going back to 1949. Maybe the Hudson management had some problems to control the Chinse workers because of the background of Mr. Hudson Wang ??

[Skip JayR]

Originally Posted by BigBeakie

And I think you are focusing on Gunboat to the exclusion of the bigger picture, I.e. the massive problem with QA in China, and the lack of respect for IP protection of Their trading partners. There are many that have experienced this, including the Australian multihull designer case I am very familiar with.

But Mr. Hudson Wang already has a business partner from NewZealand, its Mr. Paul Hake. Look at the Hake image broschure... not a small partner I would say.

In other words: Hudson company is not just a Taiwanese company with production facilities in China. It is not Chinese. Taiwan is not China ! - Hudson already deals international partnerships, e.g. with NZ.... and it seems this partnership is going very well. Otherwise Mr. Hake would not stand aside Mr. Hudson Wang fighting back Gunboat.

And therefor Gunboat USA dealt with both, with a Taiwanese-NewZealand Collaboration.... with some production facilities in China. Thats something different, right ?

Not to forget: In August announced as one of the leading boat designers Gino Morrelli (MM - Morrelli & Melvin) a partnership with Hudson Company. Morrelli let build in China a 55 Foot catamaran as announced in YachtWorld in August 2015.




Morrelli we know from America's cup projects and having built (and still building) extra ordinary boats.

I dont think, Gino became a blind (business) man over night ! - Did he ? - He has such a highly reputation as top class boat builder/designer. He wisely will change his partners not fooling himself by "bad quality made in China". I cant imagine, that Hudson Company is delivering such bad quality as complained by Gunboat USA.

Lets see... probably we all here wont get the fully picture "in big". Such international businesses are complicated. Who knows what are the real reasons behind.

It skinks heavily for me !! - Maybe the Gunboat owner now fears after the deal of MM with Mr. Hudson, that this new 55 ft HH catamaran (coming in 2016/2017) becomes the big, big new concurrence... and will destroy his own future markets. And maybe he is even tired of all this business thinking: Let's go front US court and pull out 10 million from the pockets of "Hudson marine Taiwan/China - Hakes Marine NZ". Who know, who knows....

From strategic marketing consulting I was servicing big concerns I have learnt one thing: BIG BUSINESS IS ALWAYS DIRTY BUSINESS. Sadly to say. Thats why I have left this world. I prefer to entertain people as cultural journalist via radio... and make them happy. ;-)

[socaldmax]

Originally Posted by Doe818

And herein lies (part of) the rub...a LOT of cape town based suppliers to GB still tell how they were left out of pocket when GB 'shut down' in SA and ran off without settling their bills. Some took years to recover, some didn't recover at all. Employees arrived at work one morning to find the gates locked and their jobs gone without notice. Customers boats were left unfinished. So I find it a little rich for GB to feel aggrieved and accusing the Chinese of unethical business practices....a line about living by the sword seems appropriate here...

Yes, it seems very appropriate!

At least they had a chance of suing and getting compensated for their losses in SA or the US. Why they didn't makes me curious. Smaller sums I can see dropping it, but if it was enough to sink my entire business, I'd be willing to pursue it in court.

[socaldmax]

Originally Posted by beiland

Just a brief outline from what I recall.

When Gunboat first started out they of course realized it was just not feasible economically to build their own facility. So they looked around locations around the world and chose a builder in SA. That worked for awhile, but remember they were building a very hi-tech composite boat that requires skilled workers to recognize and give feedback to even small steps in the layup process. This IS NOT standard fiberglass layup building process.

Builders in SA at the time were experiencing a BIG growth spurt, and the availability of skilled labors was being strained. One yard might take on some unskilled labor, apply the time and effort to train them, and then suddenly that worker was being attracted to another yard with bigger more immediate contracts. The limited skilled labor force was migrating around the yards, and I'm sure this hurt consistency. Then a yard would have to take on more unskilled labor to train and help with production. What I'm getting at is this 'revolving work force' that in many cases who thought they were now fully knowledgeable were not really so. But the yards had to make do with what they could find. ( I think some of these same things might be said about the Chinese boat builders, where even more untrained workers are utilized).

(I often said if I was having a steel boat built i would definitely consider SA, or even a normal glass boat, BUT a hi-tech composite boat would give me second concerns)

Gunboat likely experienced some problems with their first choice of builders there in SA, and chose to select another builder of set up their own (I don't recall exactly).

At some point their order books and the size of their vessel designs were getting larger. That is when they chose to look at the Chinese builders that were blossoming at the time. I believe that sent in the whole crew of trainers and overseers at the time hoping to eventually locate most all of their production to that area. Likely they ran into a number of problems sourcing proper/quality building materials, and even shipping problems getting the built vessels back from China.

Eventually they sought out good old American production figuring they could now command the pricing for their vessels that would allow for American labor charges. The NC choice likely had a number of good considerations, in addition to the State itself offering some good incentives.

They probably hoped that they could maintain production in both locations for a goodly amount of time, but likely some customers of the Chines built vessels had warranty problems that the Chinese yard would try and ignore, and this became a flash point between the two. The Chinese option at that point was 'forget Gunboat parent' that taught us these processes for their hi-tech construction, we can do it on our own.

I normally don't get into a discussion with so many suppositions, but I think in this case you're probably very close to correct on most counts, if not all of them.

To me, this all points to GB not wanting to operate a proper business. They want to farm out all of the labor and reap most of the profits off of IP? I can (kinda) understand why Chinese mgmt have no qualms about ripping off IP. Do the labor, make the money. Hand your IP over to someone else and expect them to do all of the grunt work and hand back the bulk of the profits...

that usually doesn't end well, anywhere.

Back to GB and Chinese labor. I think a lot of people are selling Chinese labor short. They're entirely capable of engineering and producing high quality products (some of the highest quality products in the world, certainly surpassing the US in many fields) not even considering the cost savings. The problem is, if you want it built to your specs, you'd better be ready to stand there and make it happen personally. Absentee profiteering doesn't work. Didn't work for anyone else, didn't work for GB. The vast majority of ICs are produced in Asia, and there are mgmt teams from the parent company in place to make sure everything meets quality and production goals and all chips go out the front door instead of the back door.

What GB should have done was stuck with SA through the growing pains, or pick an equally skilled company elsewhere and stuck to it. There are a lot of choices worldwide where they could have put down roots, hired skilled labor and built a business with a well founded reputation for quality, sound engineering, advanced materials and craftsmanship. Instead, they look to me like a group of guys wandering around with a CDROM full of CAD drawings looking for someone to build boats for them, and having a difficult time of it.

Even if GB were in my price range, I'd pass, based on their lack of direct control of QC. I'm perfectly happy buying used cars, used RVs, a used boat. Let someone else take the initial loss and I'll enjoy a well sorted out boat after they've made their upgrades and I'm sure that it's well built.

From what I gather reading the forum, there was a time years ago when builders were more interested in building quality, durable boats rather than cutting corners and maximizing profits selling round squares. This entire sad story revolves around cutting corners for profit margin.

[cwjohm]

I have been manufacturing in China (electronics, mechanical, plastics) for 30 years. Like anywhere the quality of the output will vary from company to company. We are audited by international quality companies to the highest standards for medical devices, and work with multinationals with extremely high quality standards, who also manufacture in China themselves.


It is easy for the tradesman to blame his tools, but the reality is that quality comes from the top, not from the bottom. The secret to success in manufacturing in China or any other low cost country is to have comprehensive quality systems in place in your own company. I have someone in China pretty much all of the time constantly auditing our suppliers.


I am not convinced that any of the companies mentioned here, inclusive of Gunboat, have either experienced manufacturing specialists or have proper quality systems in place, and as such, I would not buy from them.


So by all means buyer beware, but this really has nothing to do with country of manufacture.


In regards to IP I think it is laughable that we point the finger at the Chinese. I been involved in complex manufacturing all over the world and I would be equally concerned by IP theft in the USA as anywhere else. The fact of the matter is that if a company is stupid enough to allow circumstances where their IP is copied then they really should not be in business in the first place.

[impi]

I may be way out here guys ... but ... I have heard rumours that GB will be back in SA building - if not already ... 'hear say' ... lets see!

[socaldmax]

Originally Posted by impi

I may be way out here guys ... but ... I have heard rumours that GB will be back in SA building - if not already ... 'hear say' ... lets see!

That sounds great! Great for the skilled craftsmen in SA, and for future GB customers!

[Skip JayR]

Originally Posted by impi

I may be way out here guys ... but ... I have heard rumours that GB will be back in SA building - if not already ... 'hear say' ... lets see!

What we learnt yesterday about the "former SA production faclities" still open bills from suppliers side they store in the board and some of them even went bankcrupcy (so far this is not just a rumour)...

... it might not be a good idea to go back to SA. The GB management/owner will be stoned front their old warft gates... or at least have to fight front court some new trials.

Cant imagine, that after a short period of only 3-4 years (since 2011) the statutory period of limitation is effective. In Germany such a period is at least 5 years. Who knows how the SA law is written :-)

[Skip JayR]

Originally Posted by cwjohm

I have been manufacturing in China (electronics, mechanical, plastics) for 30 years....

Well spoken...

Originally Posted by socaldmax

... To me, this all points to GB not wanting to operate a proper business. They want to farm out all of the labor and reap most of the profits off of IP? I can (kinda) understand why Chinese mgmt have no qualms about ripping off IP. Do the labor, make the money. Hand your IP over to someone else and expect them to do all of the grunt work and hand back the bulk of the profits...

... Even if GB were in my price range, I'd pass, based on their lack of direct control of QC. I'm perfectly happy buying used cars, used RVs, a used boat. Let someone else take the initial loss and I'll enjoy a well sorted out boat after they've made their upgrades and I'm sure that it's well built.

From what I gather reading the forum, there was a time years ago when builders were more interested in building quality, durable boats rather than cutting corners and maximizing profits selling round squares. This entire sad story revolves around cutting corners for profit margin...

I agree... if I'd been in the situation not caring for money and thinking about something in the range of a Gunboat because of this negative (self) publicity I'd loose trust and I'd jump over quickly to some interesting alternatives built 100% in Carbon. E.g. a Sunreef 80.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLSdZNRXnvk

I never liked the name. "Gunboat"... thats a very negative, militantly name... as if one would buy a "military boat".

"Honey, lets hop on weekend on our Gunboat and shoot some pirates."

In 1st WW there were used Gunboats...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmtFSK9RxtY

French used Gunboats during Indochina war, too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JW4wuEcDKKo

When I want buy a sailing boat, it should stand for something peacefully and inspiring. But not remembering me "war".

[zboss]

So, if you are buying a $5 million dollar boat - don't you take out insurance against non-performance?

http://bpl-global.com/our-products/n...ery-insurance/

[admiralslater]

This talk of the Chinese stealing the design makes me think of somthing I heard regarding Chris White. The first GBS appeared to look a lot like the Atlantic series of Catamaran by Mister White. Feel free to correct me but I was lead to believe that he was not all that happy about. Just saying