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Old 02-04-2014, 15:46   #76
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Re: Electric propulsion on catamarans

LiFePO4 doesn't offer the energy density of LiPO, but does offer improved safety even over lead acid and at a better price per cycle life.
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Old 03-04-2014, 07:10   #77
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Re: Electric propulsion on catamarans

You have to make sure you don't overcharge lithium batteries. You would think Boeing would know better.

I want to know if it would be better to have a bigger propeller in the water when using an electric motor, or if having a higher rpm and a smaller propeller would use the same amount of energy to move the boat?
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Old 03-04-2014, 07:33   #78
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Re: Electric propulsion on catamarans

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Originally Posted by EllesBelles View Post
Bryan, I wanted to let you know that when we were at Strictly Sail in Miami, we talked to Yanmar's representative about this, and he double-checked with his main office too. He said that any hybrid system, including hybrid-marine.co.uk, is not warranted by Yanmar, or connected to Yanmar in any way.
While we were there in Miami, we went down the dock to Cris at Isara to ask him about this, because we thought that Isara was telling us that Yanmar supported Isara's hybrid system.
It seems to us that the hybrid system that Isara is using is going to be completely independent from a warranty point of view.
Since we're not going with an Isara or a hybrid on our cat, we didn't go this far, but you may want to double-check with Yanmar to be sure the way Isara plans to link the Yanmar diesel engines with the hybrids won't in any way jeopardize your Yanmar warranty.
We are hopeful that well-functioning hybrid systems are coming for our size catamarans, and you are probably going to be one of the pioneers who make it happen. I hope what we learned in Miami helps you to avoid problems being so cutting edge.
I ran this by the owner of Isara Yachts and this is his reply:

Hi Bryan
Thanks for the update. I'd be keen to set the record straight on this one so if you would be able to relay it I'd be very grateful.


We use a Yanmar 55, as you know, as the diesel drive and Hybrid Marine for the electric drive.
The Yanmar 55 has been specially adapted by Yanmar for use with Hybrid Marine's drive system. Part of this process is the certification with Yanmar for the base engine to carry an international warranty when used in conjunction with these hybrid components.


So in summary owners will benefit from 2 international warranties; Hybrid marine's for the electric drive and Yanmar's for the diesel. As discussed this is exclusive to ISARA YACHTS so not available to other manufacturers.


Thanks in advance

Regards
Cris
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Old 03-04-2014, 08:01   #79
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Re: Electric propulsion on catamarans

It's great to see so much positive energy in a thread with so many people who are open minded to new things.
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Old 03-04-2014, 09:23   #80
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Re: Electric propulsion on catamarans

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Originally Posted by SunDevil View Post
You have to make sure you don't overcharge lithium batteries. You would think Boeing would know better.

I want to know if it would be better to have a bigger propeller in the water when using an electric motor, or if having a higher rpm and a smaller propeller would use the same amount of energy to move the boat?
Large diameter and slow turning is the most efficient.
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Old 04-04-2014, 00:21   #81
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Re: Electric propulsion on catamarans

Hi All

Contactd Moon wave and here is there reply

"We will start selling our hybrid system at the end of the year. The installation and testing will be done by Torqeedo.com in connection with local partners.
The initial price of the full propulsion & energy management system including all options is about 250k EURO." for there system ..

based on that price right now it will be allot of Diesel before you have return on investment so i guess Solar power and Wind power will be Cheaper but i truly llike the solution
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Old 04-04-2014, 10:39   #82
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Re: Electric propulsion on catamarans

With the $100k 80hp outboard, why am I not surprised about the $350k propulsion package. It isn't like this is some magic sauce, the technology is well understood.
I'd join in my coop, where I expect our entire 40ft solar boat will be under $100k. Some assembly required. Batteries included.



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Hi All

Contactd Moon wave and here is there reply

"We will start selling our hybrid system at the end of the year. The installation and testing will be done by Torqeedo.com in connection with local partners.
The initial price of the full propulsion & energy management system including all options is about 250k EURO." for there system ..

based on that price right now it will be allot of Diesel before you have return on investment so i guess Solar power and Wind power will be Cheaper but i truly llike the solution
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Old 04-04-2014, 18:59   #83
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Re: Electric propulsion on catamarans

Anytime emerging tech happens, you can bet it will not make economic sense. The promise is delivered over time...but not always.
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Old 05-04-2014, 01:09   #84
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Re: Electric propulsion on catamarans

The Moonwave system price is at the high end of the spectrum, for sure. For early adopters who have deep pockets and willing to pay for whiz bang features.

But in Oz (a notoriously high priced market) the Torqeedo 40HP shaft drive motor is about AUD $20k, or about twice what an equivalent Yanmar costs.

But the return on investment over say 10 years of electric vs diesel is a more attractive proposition considering maintenance and fuel costs.
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Old 06-04-2014, 08:11   #85
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Re: Electric propulsion on catamarans

The serial Torqeedo system is obscenely expensive. Between the 2 types of hybrid systems, the serial system is much more expensive than a parallel system to manufacture. The parallel system that Isara yachts offers for example is a low priced option (in the area of $20,000 U.S.) when compared to the price of the boat with a diesel generator (which the hybrid system eliminates the need for). So basically subtract the price (& weight) of a typical diesel generator, add the price (& weight) of a 2 small electric motors added to regular diesel engines, plus controllers and a larger battery bank.
You will see the same huge price differences in cars that use Serial hybrid systems vs parallel:

Serial: Chevy Volt ($40k basic car) up to Tesla, Fisker Karma+ ($100k)
Parallel: Toyota Prius ($20k basic car) + many luxury brands who offer a hybrid version for a few thousand over their normally aspirated models.

WHY?

Because the Serial systems use LARGE electric motors as the main propulsion with LARGE generators and LARGE battery banks.
Parallel systems start with the normal drivetrains, then add small electric motors with no generators and a small addition to the battery banks. The E motors end up being the generators. This system uses the KISS method (Keep It Simple Sailor).

In the end there are advantages and disadvantages between the 2 systems. For the price the parallel systems are a no brainer to me. On yachts, parallel systems have the advantage of adding additional propulsion options where as on serial systems, if the big electric motor goes down, you better know how to sail in to your slip (the early Lagoon hybrids were serial systems and some experienced being dead in the water). Mind you, controllers have come a long way since those early systems. Still, I like the fact that if my diesel dies I can still use the electric motor (or vice versa). On a catamaran that means I have 4 propulsion methods + sails (with a parallel system). That's redundancy on a stick my friends, and as a pilot I can appreciate that.


As far as the payback period, serial systems won't ever do it. Yet people buy them, right? Obviously it's more than just about payback. People aren't spending $100,000 on a Tesla automobile to save gas. They want style while being green. Sure, parallel systems will pay back in time, but let's face it, if I can afford a new Isara, then I can afford the gas, so why bother with a hybrid system. But what I love about sailing is the silent peace of it...just the wind in the waves, no other sound, ahhhh. Turn on the rattling diesels after that and it ruins it. With electric propulsion I can eliminate that in some instances, plus run air conditioning with no diesel generator. Being green feels good and creates a better atmosphere. It adds to the cruising experience. Ask yourself sailors: doesn't it feel good to pass a trawler while you are under full sail...silently passing them as their diesel engine(s) roar and spew out black smoke as they drain their gas tanks? A hybrid system gives you that same feeling in many other situations.

Mathematically, I've read many newspaper articles about hybrid cars and the payback on gas savings vs the cost of the hybrid system. What seems to be missing from those equations is that the hybrid option adds to resale value (just like the leather seats, nav system and other options). Yet that isn't taken into consideration. Back when gas prices really soared I saw used hybrid cars selling for almost the same as new ones because they couldn't make enough new ones to keep up. But even in normal markets the hybrid option pays back very well at resale time compared to your leather seats. Eventually yachts will see the same solid payback as systems prove to be reliable as they have in cars.

Hybrids are not for everyone and I respect that. If you prefer typical diesel or gas systems, that's your choice. Respect Mon!
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Old 06-04-2014, 08:18   #86
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Re: Electric propulsion on catamarans

In these days and times electric propulsion drastically reduces the resale value of a cat. There is one that has lowered its price by half and still no takers.
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Old 06-04-2014, 09:05   #87
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Re: Electric propulsion on catamarans

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In these days and times electric propulsion drastically reduces the resale value of a cat. There is one that has lowered its price by half and still no takers.
Specifically to the failed Lagoon systems, I'm sure you are right. Those require a new propulsion system. But I'm confident that will not be the case in general for quality parallel systems. Ford Pintos resale value went down considerably after it was discovered that they explode on impact. But Fords built after that seemed to have done just fine
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Old 06-04-2014, 09:16   #88
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Re: Electric propulsion on catamarans

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Specifically to the failed Lagoon systems, I'm sure you are right. Those require a new propulsion system. But I'm confident that will not be the case in general for quality parallel systems. Ford Pintos resale value went down considerably after it was discovered that they explode on impact. But Fords built after that seemed to have done just fine

From the brokers I've spoken to and research on Yachtworld cats with electric drives have a much lower resale value than those with standard diesel propulsion. This includes cats other than the Lagoons. The Lagoons with electric drive systems value went down but the Lagoons built since are doing fine. At this point it's not a popular choice. Maybe give it a few years?


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Old 06-04-2014, 09:49   #89
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Re: Electric propulsion on catamarans

I agree...with time resale value on them will get better and better...just as it did with hybrid cars. Fortunately cars have paved the way (mentally) so hybrid boats will hopefully gain popularity faster. With any luck, resale on them will be solid when we go to sell.
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Old 07-04-2014, 20:54   #90
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Re: Electric propulsion on catamarans

Truly an exciting time for the technology. What will it look like in three years?
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