Drogues or sea anchor or neither

[p435]

Originally Posted by rabbi

....Just saying that nobody I know has used it isn't a valid argument....

You are right with this statement. Thanks for this thought.



I have an alternatives with me; ropes, chain and a fold anchor. Thus will not be unprepared.

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by p435

I have an alternatives with me; ropes, chain and a fold anchor. Thus will not be unprepared.

Money comes at finite amounts for most of us, so we have to be careful where we spend it.

I completely don't care about drogues now as I am only in the Med. Longest passage this year was 200nm, nothing I need a drogue for.


When we crossed the Atlantic a couple of years ago in our previous boat we had a JSD plus reinforced attachment points in place. Sold with that boat.

I used one segment of it once to time my arrival in nasty weather, but not life threatening. Experience was good, so I would buy/build one again for another crossing.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Paul L

Would heaving-to or forereaching not have accomplished a similar result? Plus if something came up you would be in a situation to be much more responsive.

Sure. Remember that the weather was ~ 10 knots.

a. I was singlehanding. Stopping has certain benefits.
b. I would have no qualms about cutting the chute loose in an emergency. I could buoy the line and start the engines in a minute. Also, recovering a chute in light winds is really easy, less than 5 minutes.

c. Heaving to on a multihull is uncomforable. There is a sharp snap-roll in certain sea states. Hanging from the bow or stern is rock steady.

Yes, there are other options. However, what I described is common practice for offshore fishing boats. You leave lots of lights on. Just one more tool.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by p435

... I have an alternatives with me; ropes, chain and a fold anchor. Thus will not be unprepared.

Have you tested that system and measured how much braking force it applies? You will find it is 10-20 less than other drogues.


Test it. Will it slow the boat to 2-3 knots at full throttle (which is nothing compared to wind and waves)?

[p435]

Originally Posted by rabbi

...... we had a JSD plus reinforced attachment points in place. .....

@rabbi - I am not an English native speaker and struggle sometimes with abbreviations. Thus may I kindly ask you to give me some explanations the above quote. Thanks in advance.

[p435]

[QUOTE=thinwater;2742957]Have you tested that system and measured how much braking force it applies?.....
Test it. ....../QUOTE]


@thinwater - Thanks for your hint with the test!



It is easy to do and see the breaking force. Can be done while using the engines and even while sailing.

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by p435

@rabbi - I am not an English native speaker and struggle sometimes with abbreviations. Thus may I kindly ask you to give me some explanations the above quote. Thanks in advance.

JSD is the Jordan Series Droge. A Versatile System for slowing down the boat, if well tuned it gives a stable 2kn no matter what the wind / wave forces as it adapts its breaking force depending on vessel speed relative to the water.


It needs strong reinforced attachment points as in desaster conditions it may rip out normal mooring cleats.



If you test your u-shaped lines in storm conditions you may find that their breaking force diminishes at higher speed. The U straigtens to a V and only your chain keeps the last bit in the water. This system may give you the least breaking force when you need it most.

[p435]

Originally Posted by thinwater

....

c. Heaving to on a multihull is uncomforable. There is a sharp snap-roll in certain sea states. Hanging from the bow or stern is rock steady.

.....

Sofar I hoved to only in light winds.



@thinwater, I would appreciate to learn a bit more from your heaving-to experience with catamarans; eg. windforce, sail, sailsize used etc and boat behavior.



Thanks in advance!

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by p435

Sofar I hoved to only in light winds.



@thinwater, I would appreciate to learn a bit more from your heaving-to experience with catamarans; eg. windforce, sail, sailsize used etc and boat behavior.



Thanks in advance!

I Never hove to and dont see how it could be a viable strategy for serious conditions in my cat. Of course it works for waiting near a entrance but when conditions get rough it will be uncomfortable at least, increasing the risk of being flipped. Slowly running before the wind, towing drogues or lines or whatever junk is on-board would be my personal choice if there is enough room.

[Fi2010]

Originally Posted by thinwater

Several thoughts:


The Shark is a good unit, but the approach is not specific to any one drogue type.

• Some early tests by Fiorenino with tandem Sharks was disappointing, but that is because they were rigged wrong. They attached the second drogue to the Shark anchor pendant, only ~ 10' behind the Shark, where it runs in the wake of the first drogue. As a result, it didn't add much drag.
• The second drogue should be well back, at least 100 feet and preferably 200 feet. It needs to be out of the first drogues wake and in a different part of the wave train (critical to keeping them from pulling out at the same time). This will also allow it to run deeper, like a JSD. Rigged well apart, they stabilize each other, preventing ripping out of waves in extreme conditions. The drag is also stabilized.

I did a good bit of scale testing in moderately nasty weather.

Another thing that came of that is that a JSD is a really poor steering or speed limiting drogue. It works great, as designed, for nearly stopping the boat. But experiments at using shorter sections for steering or slowing have been failures; the cone design and spacing are unsuitable for higher speeds.

Mr. Drew Frye,

You’re inaccurate. Our Shark Drogue is designed with a Drogue Tail to reduce slack rode and shock loading. We accomplish this goal by attaching a mushroom anchor to the Drogue Tail. Because the weight’s behind the Shark, the rode leading back to your boat is naked. Now you can use a winch to haul in the Shark without scratching the boat’s hull. Water exits the Shark the moment it slides up the hull, making it easy to grab the Shark by hand.

Second, if you remember our response to you and Evans Starzinger in Use of drogue/parachute anchor on Catamaran (Fiorentino post #86, 87, 90, 93, 97, 98, 101, 102) We explain what the Shark Drogue Tail is designed for. We also explain how tandem drogues require weight for both drogues in order to function better. Fiorentino tested various lengths of rodes between tandem and triple drogues and found such setups risky. Mostly because it’s difficult to deploy heavy equipment from a fast moving boat where snags or tangles can occur. A second challenge is keeping even loads between both drogues. We believe it’s imperative to maintain Constant Rode Tension between any series of canopies to reduce shock loading. Otherwise deployment rode or a canopy can break apart.

As pointed out in the Use of drogue/parachute anchor on Catamaran thread, your drogue models are not to scale. Such mistakes make it difficult to develop accurate theories on how storm drogues should perform.

We appreciate your efforts to learn more, but could you please e-mail Fiorentino before publishing details about our equipment and rigging setups? This way we can reduce the publication of inaccurate information.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Fiorentino

Mr. Drew Frye,

You’re inaccurate. Our Shark Drogue is designed with a Drogue Tail to reduce slack rode and shock loading. We accomplish this goal by attaching a mushroom anchor to the Drogue Tail. Because the weight’s behind the Shark, the rode leading back to your boat is naked. Now you can use a winch to haul in the Shark without scratching the boat’s hull. Water exits the Shark the moment it slides up the hull, making it easy to grab the Shark by hand.

Second, if you remember our response to you and Evans Starzinger in Use of drogue/parachute anchor on Catamaran (Fiorentino post #86, 87, 90, 93, 97, 98, 101, 102) We explain what the Shark Drogue Tail is designed for. We also explain how tandem drogues require weight for both drogues in order to function better. Fiorentino tested various lengths of rodes between tandem and triple drogues and found such setups risky. Mostly because it’s difficult to deploy heavy equipment from a fast moving boat where snags or tangles can occur. A second challenge is keeping even loads between both drogues. We believe it’s imperative to maintain Constant Rode Tension between any series of canopies to reduce shock loading. Otherwise deployment rode or a canopy can break apart.

As pointed out in the Use of drogue/parachute anchor on Catamaran thread, your drogue models are not to scale. Such mistakes make it difficult to develop accurate theories on how storm drogues should perform.

We appreciate your efforts to learn more, but could you please e-mail Fiorentino before publishing details about our equipment and rigging setups? This way we can reduce the publication of inaccurate information.

Slow down. Nothing ill was intended, I do not believe I disparaged Fiorentino, and for those of you reading this, I did not intend to disparage Fiorentino. If I was impolite, I apologize. Public exchange of information is healthy. Fiorentio's products are well-designed and rugged.

----

I did not imply that the Shark "tail" was universally a mistake. That is something you inferred. I said that it was not long enough, by itself, for rigging a second drogue. Any additional testing you did with longer secondary rodes was not published to my knowledge. The use of the existing "tail" for a mushroom anchor it is brilliant and very effective. It is just too short, by itself, for a tandem drogue. That was your conclusion also.

Regarding "risk," we will have to disagree.

Regarding intermediate tension and real world effects, that is very interesting and it would be helpful to all if you published your data and your interpretation.

I tested at both 1/3 and full scale, at full load. There were no differences not in agreement with scale factors. Different, but scaling is pretty well understood. Yes, tension in rodes varies when moving through big waves. This is obvious. Keeping the slack out, that is an interesting challenge.


I did not imply that anyone should rig Shark drogues in any specific manner. The first thing I said was that the "approach was not specific to to any one drogue type." I do not agree that I gave incorrect rigging information. In fact, I gave very few details.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by p435

Sofar I hoved to only in light winds.

@thinwater, I would appreciate to learn a bit more from your heaving-to experience with catamarans; eg. windforce, sail, sailsize used etc and boat behavior.

Thanks in advance!

In nutshell, I've owned 4 multihulls and none of them hove to well. You can do it, but they seemed to wander a lot.

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by Fiorentino

Mr. Drew Frye,

No clue why you use thinwaters real name when he chooses to use a nickname here.

Originally Posted by Fiorentino

We appreciate your efforts to learn more, but could you please e-mail Fiorentino before publishing details about our equipment and rigging setups? This way we can reduce the publication of inaccurate information.

Somehow i read this as: no one should discuss your equipment, setup, or otherwise publicly advisable information without seeking your consent and approval first...


Luckily a forum doesn't work this way. Maybe you should re evaluate your communication strategy.

[Amnesia II]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

We went thru 'mini storm' on last passage. Beam reaching in at worst stage 5 m waves. Some were considerably larger. I was able to practice storm tactic, in reasonably safe and calm conditions. And i think drogue is not really good idea. It would not work in repeated situations where larger than normal wave ie >> 5m came from 90 degress from the main train totally unexpected. Going straight down the train with your boat would flip/roll. And saw enough of these in 2 days/nights that one cant say 'it wont happen to me'. Active steering is the safest. And then, one needs to be trained to 'hear' big wave in dark night if visibility zero. Can hear it nicely coming closer.... Fine if moon is out or clear skies. Saw all combinations.

Many yrs ago, early 90’s, on a leg from Gibraltar to Azores in our Westsail 32 we encountered 8m waves marching down from North Atlantic, they were quite orderly but by the second day they began occasionally breaking. Ok by day to steer up into, but by night we lay hove to 60 degrees to the wind and waves. Tired and often frightened for my wife & 6 month old son I had to let the boat look after us. Expecting to be pushed south by wind and waves with the possibility of missing the southernmost island Santa Maria, I was shocked, grateful and thankfully relieved our little floating home had actually made some northing in the night while hove to, allowing us to maintain our steady course to the Azores.

[p435]

@thinwater - Thanks for your reply.

I will continue making my own tests.