Catamarans Sold in the 4th Quarter of 2013

[deckofficer]

Originally Posted by Coops

But of course they do. Wouldn't you? Cannot blame anybody for that It's like the ads that you see for all products "get in now, selling fast" If they were selling fast they would not be spending/wasting money advertising.

Coops.

I know. Maybe I should enroll in the Yacht Brokers Institute before buying. About YBI and Founders | Yacht Broker Institute

[smj]

Originally Posted by deckofficer

On cars you have to pay your state sales tax on the purchase price and with property you have pay your county's property tax.



That is why home shopping via Zillow can speed you past Realtor dealings because tax and transaction histories are just a click away. I sure wish we had a Zillow for cruising boats, would make life easier for both buyers and sellers.



It makes me think yacht brokers want an artificially inflated market, makes for larger commissions.

On cars your relying on the seller or buyer to be honest about sales price, and still I don't know how you access those records.

Zillow used to report selling prices through realtors but not private sales, and now no longer. If you look at the taxable value that is not the sales price but what the county considers the property to be worth.

If you think about it I bet 90% of the boats sold in the US payed sales tax to some state but I have no idea how to access that info.


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[tomfl]

Originally Posted by deckofficer

I know you are in Oz, but here in the States homes and car's selling price is public record. Maybe that is why I'm having such a hard time determining the value of a cruising boat, the industry doesn't want me to know.

If I buy a used boat that just had a total refit, I would expect to use it for my time of ownership and when I sell, to accept the depreciation of both older age and remaining life of the last refit. That is hard to do when market values are unknown.

To a great extent home prices vary a lot, and to a lesser extent car prices. It is easy to buy a home say at a tax auction for far less than the home next to it while in reality it could well be worth more. I buy my vehicles through a buying service at my credit union and always have been able to get them at below NADA prices.

But any one who took Econ 101 knows that there need to be a minimum number of goods and services and buyers and sellers for the law of supply and demand to function. The boat market for say bass boats is large enough for basic economic principles to work, but once you get past something like Hobie cats they will not function. And even when economics theory works look at the housing market and its recent boom and bust.

Another consideration a lot of folks seem to ignore is time and location. How much more, or less, is a boat worth in Florida if you want to cruise in the Bahamas compared to a boat in Australia that might take you a year or more to sail from where the boat is to where you want it to be. Not to mention how much easier it is to refit close to your home. Or how much more is a ready to cruise boat compared to one you have to refit first.

What a boat is worth to one person may not be the same thing it is worth to another person.

[tomfl]

Originally Posted by scarlet

but, Deckofficer... NADA doesn't list CATS!... where do we go for prices on CATS?!? THAT would be where someone could make some big bucks!! put together a "bluebook" for CATS!!!

NADA does list some cats, the ones that have enough sales numbers that NADA thinks they can come up with a realistic price. Plenty of Hobie cats are listed in the NADA web site.

One suggestion I posted earlier is to contact an insurance company and see what they will insure a boat for. They tend to not be willing to insure something like an FP for say $US2,500,000 but they will be willing to insure a Gunboat for that much. Before you get insurance you will have to get a survey.

Another thing lots of folks know is if you walk the docks and crew on boats you will wind up talking to folks who know what boats are for sale and what the prices are. Some times real steals will pop up. But one thing I have noticed is while there are deals they mostly require some work to get them into cruising shape.

The longer you hang around the docks, and even better live on a boat at the docks the better idea you will have of what a boat is worth.

[tomfl]

Originally Posted by smj

SNIP

If you think about it I bet 90% of the boats sold in the US payed sales tax to some state but I have no idea how to access that info.


SNIP

That is a tall order. The sales tax is sometimes paid at a state level and sometimes paid at the county, or maybe even city level. So you would have to access every state, county, and city tax database. In Florida I paid sales tax. My condo is in Leon County, bought the boat in Monroe County, but my brother lives in Citrus County and that is where my mail is now going since my sister-in-law is getting my mail. So I paid the tax in Citrus County where the boat is registered with the state of Florida.

I am also not sure about your 90% bet. I know both Florida, California, and several NE states aggressively look for folks who are trying to avoid paying taxes.

[smj]

Originally Posted by tomfl

That is a tall order. The sales tax is sometimes paid at a state level and sometimes paid at the county, or maybe even city level. So you would have to access every state, county, and city tax database. In Florida I paid sales tax. My condo is in Leon County, bought the boat in Monroe County, but my brother lives in Citrus County and that is where my mail is now going since my sister-in-law is getting my mail. So I paid the tax in Citrus County where the boat is registered with the state of Florida.

I am also not sure about your 90% bet. I know both Florida, California, and several NE states aggressively look for folks who are trying to avoid paying taxes.

You may be paying county and city tax on your boat sale in Florida but the majority of that is going to the state. If you bought the boat in Monroe County you paid 6% state sales tax and maybe nothing towards the county. Not sure about the % of boats paying sales tax but my guess it's more than less.


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[smj]

My mistake Tom, you registered and paid tax in Citrus County not Monroe. Either way, you paid 6% tax to the state of Florida. If you registered in Monroe County you would have paid a 1.5% county tax on the first $5,000. Not sure if Citrus County has a tax on boat sales.

[tuffr2]

Citrus County is not really a hot bed for sailing vessels. It would be easy to hand count all sailboats and cats there. I wonder if you set off any alarms when you registered in Citrus County....lol

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[tomfl]

Originally Posted by tuffr2

Citrus County is not really a hot bed for sailing vessels. It would be easy to hand count all sailboats and cats there. I wonder if you set off any alarms when you registered in Citrus County....lol

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Not sure what kinda alarms you think would be set off. Citrus county is on the coast, lots of springs and lakes, and lots of boats. Crystal River is well named having some of the clearest water anywhere and has a big tourist attraction to swim close to and view manatees.

But as long as my mailing address is there why would there be any question about me registering my boat there.

[tuskie]

Originally Posted by Factor

Snip
And we do list on YACHTWORLD

Yes, I managed to find some of your company's used cats listed on Yachtworld, sorry, my mistake.

Am I correct to assume that your company doesn't release sold prices to Yachtworld for reasons of client confidentiality? And this would explain the absence of your sales on the list?

Can we please get back on topic of the posted sales data, guys?

It seems that the figures from Yachtworld are incomplete ie. not all of the vessels that were initially listed on that site and have subsequently sold have made the listing. Is it only the sales figures that participating dealers wish to have "on display" that are included? Are dealers not including vessels that have sold and the dealer doesn't wish to make the price public for reasons of client confidentiality or because, say, a low price was achieved that may adversely influence future sales?

I know that more Yachtworld listings of Australian catamarans were sold in that period than appear on the list provided. It appears that there may be some "cherry picking" of good sales prices for public consumption.

Knowing more about the data set will obviously aid our interpretation of the figures.

[tuffr2]

Citrus County is a hot bed for boats like pontoon, bass, bay (skiff type) and a few go fast fishing boats. Oh - also deck boats. Kings Bay / Crystal River is not what it used to be back in the 80's when the water was crystal clear.

Maybe this Rock Star that they plant in Hunter Springs will be a start to clean up the water...or just another attempt.

'Rock star' eelgrass offers hope for Kings Bay cleanup

But again - I can count the number of sailboats/cats in Kings Bay, Pete's Pier area on boat hands. There are zero that come up the Homosassa River and just few that venture up Crystal River. All winter I saw one old wooden Tri and one Cat. and maybe dozen smallish really sad looking sailboats.

I was kidding about setting off an alarm with the county but if a new cat or sailboat showed up in Kings Bay I would probably see it from my kayak and paddle over to check it out...but seems Kings Bay is where sailing vessels go to die with their keels stuck in the 2 feet of silt.

(There are two nice sailboats that stay at Pete's Pier on the outside slips. I know one is a live a board and does not move)

[tomfl]

Originally Posted by tuffr2

Citrus County is a hot bed

SNIP

For lots of boats

[RKsailsolo]

Confirming US home sales are a matter of public record. I'll stick with a US based broker that earns the commission by delivering a specific value that I agree is worth it. If there is deception or lack of effort to earn that commission, I will be first to use the power of economic motive to find another broker or represent myself in the deal. It's not rocket science and between a good surveyor and an attorney experienced in these transactions, I am confident that the risk to me as prospective buyer will be minimized.

I like this thread as it directly answers common questions about market values and latest trends.

[smj]

Originally Posted by RKsailsolo

Confirming US home sales are a matter of public record. I'll stick with a US based broker that earns the commission by delivering a specific value that I agree is worth it. If there is deception or lack of effort to earn that commission, I will be first to use the power of economic motive to find another broker or represent myself in the deal. It's not rocket science and between a good surveyor and an attorney experienced in these transactions, I am confident that the risk to me as prospective buyer will be minimized.

I like this thread as it directly answers common questions about market values and latest trends.

I'm able to confirm the amount financed on homes that recently sold in my area but not the sales price if it was sold by owner. Also if a house is sold by owner for cash I'm not able to confirm the final sales price. Would love to know how to access these records.


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[Boatguy30]

Is there any info on 2014 available. I would be especially interested in Voyage/ Norseman 500 and 440 data. Several of which have committed sales tax fraud in St. John's county and as a good law abiding type (and owner of 5 properties with taxes due this month) I would like to forward this info to the tax collector.