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Old 07-10-2013, 19:48   #46
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Re: Catamaran Sold Report Q2 2013

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So it's easy...find a good broker



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Old 07-10-2013, 19:58   #47
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Re: Catamaran Sold Report Q2 2013

One of the keys to finding a good one, is finding one that actually sails a multi and by sails I mean owns and uses and cruises, not just the occasional delivery, as well as sells them. Knowing a bit about the industry outside of the usual french/south african production boats would help as well, if your broker doesn't know the difference between a Lex Nicol and Hedley Nicol tri, if he doesn't know who Shawn Arber is, for example, then its not likely that he/she really understands the multihull world.

(comments made from Australian perspective)
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Old 07-10-2013, 21:55   #48
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Re: Catamaran Sold Report Q2 2013

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Originally Posted by tamicatana View Post
I don't imply in any way in my example that the seller deliberately pulled the listing from the broker to make more money/reduce commission/get rid of the broker, which is what you appear to suggest.

If a boat is on a broker listing for a long time (year or more), and if the boat is pulled out of advertising/listings, then it's not unheard of for buyers to contact the seller directly (if they've been watching and know the boat) to see whether the boat was sold or just pulled. In my example, there was no basis for the broker to claim commission, as the seller had no idea that a buyer was waiting.

My point of my example is, however, that there is, and you can see that right here at CF, reticence on the part of buyers to deal with brokers.
We agree, on all counts.

We certainly didn't mean to suggest your post implied a deliberate (and inappropriate) manoeuvre to get rid of the broker, only that it wasn't clear. In fact, we know of at least one example of a vendor deliberately trying to cut out the broker...and it ended unhappily for the vendor. So we thought it would be worthwhile to clarify and expand a bit on that particular situation.

Your point is spot on though. There is reticence to deal with boat brokers, as there is with brokers in other areas as well. Brokers are probably as popular as dentists or accountants...or other expensive, but often necessary, services.
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Old 07-10-2013, 21:59   #49
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Re: Catamaran Sold Report Q2 2013

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Originally Posted by Factor View Post
One of the keys to finding a good one, is finding one that actually sails a multi and by sails I mean owns and uses and cruises, not just the occasional delivery, as well as sells them. Knowing a bit about the industry outside of the usual french/south african production boats would help as well, if your broker doesn't know the difference between a Lex Nicol and Hedley Nicol tri, if he doesn't know who Shawn Arber is, for example, then its not likely that he/she really understands the multihull world.

(comments made from Australian perspective)
Certainly sound advice, but we can't help but wonder what proportion of brokers would pass that threshold!?!
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Old 07-10-2013, 22:03   #50
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Re: Catamaran Sold Report Q2 2013

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Brokers are probably as popular as dentists or accountants...or other expensive, but often necessary, services.
Insinuating that brokers are as necessary as dentists is pretty ridiculous. I have a $4.5K implant coming up soon. I would not like to try operation this myself! However I don't think its beyond the average persons scope to put a for sale add up on the internet. Plus it wouldn't be hard to take better pics than the majority of professional adds I have seen.
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Old 07-10-2013, 22:23   #51
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Re: Catamaran Sold Report Q2 2013

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Originally Posted by dennisail View Post
Insinuating that brokers are as necessary as dentists is pretty ridiculous. I have a $4.5K implant coming up soon. I would not like to try operation this myself! However I don't think its beyond the average persons scope to put a for sale add up on the internet. Plus it wouldn't be hard to take better pics than the majority of professorial adds I have seen.
We accept your point, but our remark was directed toward popularity, rather than necessity. For example, we suspect you may not be looking forward to your upcoming implant in a similar way that a vendor might not look forward to engaging a broker...or an accountant, or a lawyer and so on.

For someone not prepared to put up the effort of listing, promoting and then all that is involved in dealing directly with interested buyers, a broker becomes a necessary service...and it can be a very rewarding relationship if the broker is a good one.

We certainly agree, however, about the standard of pics (not to mention the included items or vessel history) in the majority of professional adverts! In our view, that alone suggests that good brokers may be perhaps a bit less common than good dentists!?!
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Old 07-10-2013, 22:32   #52
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Re: Catamaran Sold Report Q2 2013

I have to tell you. I have been through many dentists. They are up there in the most hated professions. I was originally quoted $10K for my implant and found someone to do it for less than half price. My mother is a pensioner and got a $750 government cheque to take to a dentist to do a few things. One filling and 45 min later, the bill came to $749.97 and none of the real problems were fixed. He said he would try to suggest the gov provide more money for the work needed in the future.

So if good brokers are less common than good dentists they really are few and far between

Some of the pics and descriptions truly are appalling. The first thing I would do as broker is invest in decent camera and wide angle lens. Then make sure the boat is presentable in the pics. No buyer wants to see the liveaboards dirty dishes! Seriously WTF are some people paying for?
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Old 08-10-2013, 00:51   #53
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Re: Catamaran Sold Report Q2 2013

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Originally Posted by dennisail View Post
Some of the pics and descriptions truly are appalling. The first thing I would do as broker is invest in decent camera and wide angle lens. Then make sure the boat is presentable in the pics. No buyer wants to see the liveaboards dirty dishes! Seriously WTF are some people paying for?
I completely agree on this.
Our personal database [listing many 100s] goes back to c2000 on cats we've been interested in and for self educational purposes.
I am really annoyed at many listing brokers positing decade [or more] old photos in their adverts. as well as stock manufacturers footage of sister ships without declaring them as such.
Without reference to the date they appear to be deliberately passing off these as contemporary representations of the vessel for sale.
In this age of digital photography and the internet this is totally unacceptable. Is it slack practice or attempted sleight of hand?
A growing number of brokerages now supply 80-100 current clear pix of the actual vessel for sale, given the world wide spread of potential buyers this is a very welcome trend.
A number of other points have been raised in this thread that I'd like to comment on.
1/ Brokers... 'Factor has it in a nutshell. Sometimes the short answer is the best answer.
I think there are many ethical brokers out there but do they KNOW the type of boat I'M after is crucial IMO.

2/ Percentage off asking price?... Research..Research..Research!
Best answer I've seen here 'is to take into account how many times the boat's dropped in price', only research reveals this.
Many sellers are unrealistic re. the market and won't listen to a good broker, it takes years of dropping prices until they finally hit the price point a buyer will close on.
An example from this list is a Lagoon 57S that sold for c430K$ after being listed for 20 months. A very well equipped world cruiser.
I have this boat for sale in 2003/4 for near $1M.
Withdrawn after a few years, then put back on the market 2008/9 for $715K. Changed broker 20mths ago and sold for $430K after going through numerous price drops.
Right in the ballpark of most of the unsold L57s on the market to-day, should have been there in the first place IMO.
Add after add simply recycled the photos from 2003/4, not helpful.
The boat has been for sale for the last 4-5 years, not 20 months.
The sales list is not deceitful but cannot tell the full story either.

Survey:
Absolutely must have, never ever believe 'it's turnkey' or yes, the classic, "that'll buff right out", 'I followed the blog, it must be good!' and lastly "it's never seen charter".
Some of my stockpile of photos are actually lifted from old charter brochures for vessels so listed. Easy found in most cases.
Some crewed charter cats are really in very good condition so that's not the turn off for me but the inaccurate/false claim is.
The cats I've followed up on that were $4-500K+ 'turnkey' and had quickly revealed major problems are numerous enough to be a real worry.
The cost of a survey or two is not a large % overall but can save a lot of grief.

I believe the above points apply to all types of boats but I've only kept files on cats.
Cheers,
Mac
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Old 08-10-2013, 02:52   #54
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Re: Catamaran Sold Report Q2 2013

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Originally Posted by dennisail View Post
The first thing I would do as broker is invest in decent camera and wide angle lens.
Personally I really dislike those wide angle photos unless they are just making a subtle impression of more space. I much prefer to see photos that look realistic.

Factors comment:
One of the keys to finding a good one, is finding one that actually sails a multi and by sails I mean owns and uses and cruises ...

I agree. I bought mine through a multihull specialist, and the broker had his own multihull which he raced, so was knowledgeable on every subject I asked him about.
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Old 08-10-2013, 03:15   #55
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Re: Catamaran Sold Report Q2 2013

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Personally I really dislike those wide angle photos unless they are just making a subtle impression of more space. I much prefer to see photos that look realistic.
Its very hard to get a feel for the layout when there are 5 small pics of the area. An overall wide angle shot is the best way see what is going on. To me it IS realistic. When I enter a boat I can see everything in the saloon at a glance. My eye is not limited to seeing only the chart table, or the seats, or a window etc. The closer pics should also be there to view detail. I agree to someone with no idea, wide angle shots may be abused to give a feeling of more space than there actually is. In any case you are PAYING the broker to make your boat look as good as possible!
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Old 08-10-2013, 04:01   #56
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Re: Catamaran Sold Report Q2 2013

Ok here are a couple of examples. I found these 2007 photos on a CD left by the previous owner, from when he bought the boat. It's hard to get a realistic perspective of what you are looking at.

In the case of the saloon, the open space on top of the cabinet in the foreground looks almost as big as the saloon table, but in reality a dinner plate would fill the corner. The nav desk looks tiny but is quite substantial.

The cockpit shows everything that's there, but to me, the result looks quite small ... and all those curves. You can see that same cabinet inside.

Dennisail, I do see your point on the benefits of showing everything in one view, but I still find photos like that are annoying.
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Old 08-10-2013, 04:11   #57
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Re: Catamaran Sold Report Q2 2013

That is a fish eye lens. That is taking it to the extreme. When the whole image is distorted thats too much.
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Old 08-10-2013, 16:17   #58
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Re: Catamaran Sold Report Q2 2013

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Originally Posted by Wraith_Mac View Post
I completely agree on this.
Our personal database[listing many 100s] goes back to c2000 on cats we've been interested in and for self educational purposes.
I am really annoyed at many listing brokers positing decade [or more] old photos in their adverts. as well as stock manufacturers footage of sister ships without declaring them as such.
Without reference to the date they appear to be deliberately passing off these as contemporary representations of the vessel for sale.
In this age of digital photography and the internet this is totally unacceptable. Is it slack practice or attempted sleight of hand?
A growing number of brokerages now supply 80-100 current clear pix of the actual vessel for sale, given the world wide spread of potential buyers this is a very welcome trend.
A number of other points have been raised in this thread that I'd like to comment on.
1/ Brokers... 'Factor has it in a nutshell. Sometimes the short answer is the best answer.
I think there are many ethical brokers out there but do they KNOW the type of boat I'M after is crucial IMO.

2/ Percentage off asking price?... Research..Research..Research!
Best answer I've seen here 'is to take into account how many times the boat's dropped in price', only research reveals this.
Many sellers are unrealistic re. the market and won't listen to a good broker, it takes years of dropping prices until they finally hit the price point a buyer will close on.
An example from this list is a Lagoon 57S that sold for c430K$ after being listed for 20 months. A very well equipped world cruiser.
I have this boat for sale in 2003/4 for near $1M.
Withdrawn after a few years, then put back on the market 2008/9 for $715K. Changed broker 20mths ago and sold for $430K after going through numerous price drops.
Right in the ballpark of most of the unsold L57s on the market to-day, should have been there in the first place IMO.
Add after add simply recycled the photos from 2003/4, not helpful.
The boat has been for sale for the last 4-5 years, not 20 months.
The sales list is not deceitful but cannot tell the full story either.

Survey:
Absolutely must have, never ever believe 'it's turnkey' or yes, the classic, "that'll buff right out", 'I followed the blog, it must be good!' and lastly "it's never seen charter".
Some of my stockpile of photos are actually lifted from old charter brochures for vessels so listed. Easy found in most cases.
Some crewed charter cats are really in very good condition so that's not the turn off for me but the inaccurate/false claim is.
The cats I've followed up on that were $4-500K+ 'turnkey' and had quickly revealed major problems are numerous enough to be a real worry.
The cost of a survey or two is not a large % overall but can save a lot of grief.

I believe the above points apply to all types of boats but I've only kept files on cats.
Cheers,
Mac

Well said Mac!

Your database sounds like it could be worth a lot to any other buyers out there!!

We agree as well with dennisail re the fish eye lens. A good quality (i.e. NO spherical aberration = expensive though!) wide angle lens would be ideal. Our (much more modest!) database included good wide angle pics of every vessel we went aboard during our 4-year buying search; those pics were extremely helpful as we reflected back on vessels over those years.
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Old 08-10-2013, 17:03   #59
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Re: Catamaran Sold Report Q2 2013

Hi D&D,
7400+ Files, 262 main folders not including sub folders and that's only vessels not the retail equipment folders [electrics, electronics, engines, props, batteries, solar etc]. Still growing. LOL
Mainly these cats are 45'-60' models and only a very few of these cats interest us for personal use.
To keep ourselves as fully informed as we can I keep files on a lot of models for comparison of price, fit-out, condition and actual selling price [when I can get it].
It's also a bit of fun to track a yachts history and so on.
We get up your way a bit, a lot of family history in that area, so look forward to meeting you both.
Cheers,
Mac
PS agree with both above about need for some wide angle shots but NOT the accursed 'fish eye' lens.
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Old 08-10-2013, 18:39   #60
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Re: Catamaran Sold Report Q2 2013

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Originally Posted by Wraith_Mac View Post
actual selling price [when I can get it].
It's also a bit of fun to track a yachts history
You must've learned some tricks during all your efforts, tricks that we never quite mastered, viz. finding actual selling prices and, even more basic, the names of the vessels themselves.

Perhaps the whole point of this thread is the difficulty of confirming actual selling prices. Our experience was no exception.

We were also amazed the lengths we often needed to press in order to find a vessel's name. There were even times when we were forced to give up; when that happened we took it as a very, very bad sign...either there was something wrong with the vessel, or something wrong with the listing/broker...and we found both in a couple of cases!
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