Catamaran Sold Report Q2 2013

[Wraith_Mac]

Originally Posted by D&D

You must've learned some tricks during all your efforts, tricks that we never quite mastered, viz. finding actual selling prices and, even more basic, the names of the vessels themselves.

Training helped, imagination and persistence, official databases USCG, AMSA, NZ registry, SAMSA etc.

Perhaps the whole point of this thread is the difficulty of confirming actual selling prices. Our experience was no exception.

A US broker published this list on a little known web-site for years, just lately he has become a bit sporadic. Otherwise you either have be in the industry and pay a fee I think.

We were also amazed the lengths we often needed to press in order to find a vessel's name. There were even times when we were forced to give up; when that happened we took it as a very, very bad sign...either there was something wrong with the vessel, or something wrong with the listing/broker...and we found both in a couple of cases!

That's where investigation training, persistence, patience and luck comes into it.
A good graphics program also helps. I have combined this with Google Earth photo and Street View images to identify and 'check out' vessels.
Example incl.
Lot's of fun, really.
Cheers,
Mac

[Charter Cat]

Interesting discussion with many great points.

The brokers role has changed due to Internet and it also depends on the object for sale. If I look at the market of production cats (Lagoon, FP, Voyager, Catana, Seawind, etc, etc), here are some of my views.

With so much information available, I'm not looking for general boat information in a broker ad but get information elsewhere, perhaps more objective sources. In the broker ad, I like to find information for the specific boat in question. Boat history, equipment list, engine hours, any refitted equipment, etc. As for photos, I like close ups on key items (Windlass, Mastfoot, Engine, etc). Look at Boatshed.com homepage. They provide 50-100 photos on each object, also showing wear&tear marks. When I see that, the broker gain my all important trust.

The baot market is much more International now. In a short time I can as a buyer get information of boats for sale around the world. If the boat's price justefy it, buyers will buy boats much further away from where they live that 10-15 years ago. To me, dealing with people in another part of the world its important that I can trust thay my transaction will be secure anywhere from providing down payment to clearing all paperwork through the buying process. Dealing with different nationalities and cultures is all important skills for brokers today.

Where yesterday marketing the boat was perhaps the most important atribute for a broker. Today that's fairly simple. Global poeple skills much more important broker slills today, and I'm not sure all of them recognized it.

A Saudi customer calling an American broker or a Japaneze customer calling a Greek broker would be very interesting conversations to observe.

[D&D]

Originally Posted by Charter Cat

...dealing with people in another part of the world its important that I can trust thay my transaction will be secure anywhere from providing down payment to clearing all paperwork through the buying process.

Lots of good comments there Charter Cat but the one above really tweaked our (very nearly disasterous!) experience with a Caribbean broker who (1) listed a vessel with NO selling instructions from the vendor and (2) completely misrepresented the status (condition and inclusions) of the vessel...and we almost made an offer with a deposit! Our offer was to be conditional on survey and sea trial, of course, but in hindsight it seems almost certain that we would've been struggling to recover that deposit. We were saved by an American broker with an agent (with a camera!) 'on the spot'...and we subsequently came to trust that American broker (who we continue to recommend) a lot, even though for various reasons we did not end up buying through the American broker.

Anyway short version...we absolutely agree that transactions occurring in foreign jurisdictions carry large and inherent risks!!

[dennisail]

we absolutely agree that transactions occurring in foreign jurisdictions carry large and inherent risks

Ask for 100s of photos of areas you want to see. Then go there and look at the boat in person before making an offer IMO. Screw buying sight unseen.

[D&D]

Originally Posted by dennisail

Ask for 100s of photos of areas you want to see. Then go there and look at the boat in person before making an offer IMO. Screw buying sight unseen.

Photos are certainly important, but sometimes they are also untrustworthy. We found several instances where we were given photos of other vessels.

Going there and looking at the boat yourself is the best option, for sure.

If you're searching around the globe, however, travelling to a prospective purchase can be at least awkward and very costly...and it can also loose the vessel to someone else while you're organizing your travel plans.

For vessels a long way away a more practical interim tactic might be to find a solid, independent and tough surveyor...and then make the offer (using either a credible agent or your own local lawyer) subject to both survey and sea trails. If the vessel passes the survey and you can agree on any post-survey price adjustments, THEN you make your travel plans, (a) holding an independent survey and (b) with a holding deposit to ensure the vessel will still be there when you arrive.

So far as we can see, no-one seems to be suggesting buying sight unseen...and no wonder that!

[Rohan]

The Seawind 1160 price there is reasonable ($349,000). I wish others would take note; In the United States, there tends to be a huge gap between what most are trying to sell them for vs. what people are actually going to pay. Seen some several years old listed as much at 500k! I'm sure they are great boats, but no one is going to buy at that price.

[dennisail]

What is the gap like here in Australia for cats? Say if one is asking 300K would an offer of 200K be considered rude? I know in america buying a mono, there is a good chance they would accept that kind of offer! This whole concept of selling within 10% of the asking price is a bit of a shock compared to that. I know even in AU you can still get price reductions like that for monos.

[Wraith_Mac]

Originally Posted by dennisail

What is the gap like here in Australia for cats? Say if one is asking 300K would an offer of 200K be considered rude? I know in america buying a mono, there is a good chance they would accept that kind of offer! This whole concept of selling within 10% of the asking price is a bit of a shock compared to that. I know even in AU you can still get price reductions like that for monos.

Dennisail,
In a way you just answered your own question didn't you?
There's no set 'gap' on monos or multis or houses or cars for that matter.
It all depends on the sellers' circumstances in the end.
Those that are cashed up can wait longer to get their sale, another may need to sell NOW for a myriad of reasons and their minimum price may well be what you or another buyer offers.
There's no easy way of knowing which is which, so offer what you're really willing to pay and wait for a result, even if it's a counter offer.
There should be no need for you to worry if it's 'rude' or not, it's business.
Some owners may get offended but if the shoe was on the other foot most of them would be doing the same IMO.
Cheers,
Mac

[dennisail]

Yeah I figured as much. Just trying to figure out what might be considered an insulting offer or not. You dont want to piss someone off if you really want their boat, but at the same time you want to get it as cheaply as possible.

[tamicatana]

<soapbox>

Anyone who doesn't view the negotiation as a business transaction whereat the seller wants high price and buyer wants low, is probably going to be a PITA to deal with...

I think the concept of 'insulting the seller' has come about via folks who are trying to cultivate a tradition of offering too high a price ;-) It drove me nuts to hear my broker, whom I otherwise loved to death, tell me that I might 'insult the seller.' I'm not in it to make the seller my friend, I'm in it to get the best price possible. Seller doesn't have to accept my offer and he's welcome to counter with whatever he wants.

And actually, the survey should drive the price...

</soapbox>

[D&D]

Originally Posted by tamicatana

<soapbox>

Anyone who doesn't view the negotiation as a business transaction whereat the seller wants high price and buyer wants low, is probably going to be a PITA to deal with...

I think the concept of 'insulting the seller' has come about via folks who are trying to cultivate a tradition of offering too high a price ;-) It drove me nuts to hear my broker, whom I otherwise loved to death, tell me that I might 'insult the seller.' I'm not in it to make the seller my friend, I'm in it to get the best price possible. Seller doesn't have to accept my offer and he's welcome to counter with whatever he wants.

And actually, the survey should drive the price...

</soapbox>

Well said!

[Factor]

Originally Posted by dennisail

Yeah I figured as much. Just trying to figure out what might be considered an insulting offer or not. You dont want to piss someone off if you really want their boat, but at the same time you want to get it as cheaply as possible.

How much do you want for your Hunter?

[OutOfControl]

Originally Posted by Factor

How much do you want for your Hunter?

Factor, he has it listed for $300,000 USD but I got a feeling he would take $200,000 USD.

[cwjohm]

From my perspective if someone makes me a lowball price on a house, car or boat, then I don't think they are rude, but rather I think they are not a serious buyer and as a general rule I tell the agent, broker, whatever to simply ignore them. Life is too short to deal with these sort of people.

I have sold a lot of houses, cars and boats and never has somebody making a lowball offer actually bought anything. Usually they have little more to do than waste your time.

Brokers and agents know this of course, and that is why they don't like to make lowball offers. It simply destroys the buyers credibility.

Where sellers actually take advice both specialised multihull brokers in Australia set reasonable prices on their second hand boats, and in my view you would be foolish to offer anything under 10-15% below. Of course many times owners do not take the advice of the broker. This is of course easy to identify as the body language of the broker quickly establishes that he believes the price to be unrealistic. However, in these cases my experience again in talking to the owner is that a lowball price is futile as invariably they have an almost religious view that their boat is worth a certain amount of money and nothing short of an epiphany is going to change their mind. I am sure we can all think of certain examples of boats that have been on the market for years with no offers anywhere near the mark and yet still their owners maintain their view of a certain value.

[dennisail]

cwj, I agree with some of what you said. But looking at the sold report many boats sold for much less than 10-15% lower. So if they sold for that, wouldn't it be wise to offer lower and look for a counter offer? Boats in the USA are selling for 30% lower, well many monos are anyway. Some people make a living out of what you call time wasting.

I know how much I want for my Hunter, but yes I will advertise it for higher but not ridiculously so. I will not be offended by what the offer is. I will counter it and if they don't accept my lowest figure its no deal. I wont refuse to give a counter offer on the grounds they might be a time waster. That would be monumentally stupid. They may be willing to pay much more, but you wont find out unless you ask, in the same way as the seller might take much less than the asking price but you wont find out without asking either.

Look at what is going on the USA. I smell another GFC style event. We all know what that means for boat prices.

Originally Posted by OutOfControl

Factor, he has it listed for $300,000 USD but I got a feeling he would take $200,000 USD.

I'd take that no probs. For you I would take $150k