Bridge Deck Clearance ? How Much 40-50ft !

[courju]

Originally Posted by Mark Johnson

Barry,
You make good points about the problems with production cats. Having built, sailed, and followed multihulls for 40 + years now, I can say that, "back in the day", when most folks built there own, "most" were built to better designs.

They had much better wing clearance, good leeway prevention, lower cabin height, smaller cabins with wider side decks, lower COG and lower windage, higher headsails that you could see around from the helm, lighter build weight per foot, and better performance. WHY? The guy who built his own boat, wanted a real "sea boat"!

"Production" boat designers and builders are not in it to design/build the best boat. They're in it to make a living. ACCOMMODATIONS SELL BOATS for the cruising set... BLINDING SPEED SELLS BOATS, for the racing set. That means one of the two extremes sell, like very small accommodation rockets that cost a fortune for what you get, OR CONDOMARANS, that excel as a dockside party boat, but fall short as a true sea boat.

There are one or two exceptions out there, but for the most part, the best cats out there are custom one offs, from decades ago. IMO... They were just built to a better design.

Mark

Hello Mark,

I think you are taking shortcuts without taking into account the usage of the boat.
A 20 years old sailer will not look at the same boat than a family with 2-3 children. And for a retired couple it will be a different vision too.
Just keep in mind than most of the production is staying in the marina and will never do more than a 100 miles run...
However, a circumnav family will want a minimum comfort in order to make sure kids enjoy this life: in this case what you call a 'production' boat is a great boat.
But if you are single most probably you will prefer a boat built in India or Thailand: she will have very good performance but will never be a 'friendly' boat for a family.
Comparing a Porsche with a Volvo is a non-sense... A sport car and a motorhome have different usages

Cheers

[Mark Johnson]

Originally Posted by courju

Hello Mark,

I think you are taking shortcuts without taking into account the usage of the boat.
A 20 years old sailer will not look at the same boat than a family with 2-3 children. And for a retired couple it will be a different vision too.
Just keep in mind than most of the production is staying in the marina and will never do more than a 100 miles run...
However, a circumnav family will want a minimum comfort in order to make sure kids enjoy this life: in this case what you call a 'production' boat is a great boat.
But if you are single most probably you will prefer a boat built in India or Thailand: she will have very good performance but will never be a 'friendly' boat for a family.
Comparing a Porsche with a Volvo is a non-sense... A sport car and a motorhome have different usages

Cheers

You missed my point... Since this is not "Daysailor's Forum", or "Racer's Forum", I assumed we were referring to REAL cruising boat requirements, not that of "armchair cruisers"...

I was ONLY referring to what makes a good "cruising" boat, which by definition means covering many thousands of sea miles, continuously or off and on, in relative comfort... (for years), and unfortunately, seeing a LOT of going to windward, and a LOT of REALLY bad weather. Some will be dangerous and terrifying! This is the life of a "true cruising boat", and calls for a cruising boat design.

Most production boats... Cat, Tri, or monohull, are not GOOD cruising designs. The market for "real cruising boats" is too small. A much higher % of "one offs", are built to a good cruising boat design, and make a good choice, IF you can find a really well built one. VERY few people spent years of their life building a racer, OR a "CONDOMARAN"! They are a different sort of people.

90% of the (very different from this requirement) "production" designs out there, were OF COARSE not designed for this use. They were designed for short, occasional cruises, going mostly down wind, REALLY picking your weather, and spending 99% of their life tied to a dock!

On the other end of the spectrum are racing boats, that can't carry a payload, have limited storage, don't offer enough protection or comfort for a middle aged couple as crew, and don't even have necessities like stanchions, a place for a dinghy, or an anchor roller. This also is NOT a cruising boat, nor fits its requirements. Their designers didn't mean for it too either.

The problem becomes when people (out of ignorance)... buy one of the majority of these ill suited boats, mostly in the first group, and set out for serious long distance long term cruising, anyway, in a boat that has no wing clearance, and in many other ways, is utterly unsuited to it.

In all categories of hull preference, but even more so in production cats, The % of designs that fill the cruising boat's requirements, are in the neighborhood of 5 to 10% at best.

One needs to choose from that < 10%, a design & builder that can provide a boat suitable to their needs. Far too many cruisers ignore this common sense rule.

My friend Jeff's self designed, self built cat, for example, filled those requirements well. It had crossed oceans, cruised extensively, and you could buzz the dinghy right through the wing tunnel. Of all of these requirements, #1 is: YOU NEED GOOD WING CLEARANCE! There are boatyards all over the world that have multihulls in them, that ignored this rule, and now have so much structural damage that they could go no further.

M.

[stillbuilding]

Originally Posted by Mark Johnson

You missed my point... Since this is not "Daysailor's Forum", or "Racer's Forum", I assumed we were referring to REAL cruising boat requirements, not that of "armchair cruisers"...

I was ONLY referring to what makes a good "cruising" boat, which by definition means covering many thousands of sea miles, continuously or off and on, in relative comfort... (for years), and unfortunately, seeing a LOT of going to windward, and a LOT of REALLY bad weather. Some will be dangerous and terrifying! This is the life of a "true cruising boat", and calls for a cruising boat design.

Most production boats... Cat, Tri, or monohull, are not GOOD cruising designs. The market for "real cruising boats" is too small. A much higher % of "one offs", are built to a good cruising boat design, and make a good choice, IF you can find a really well built one. VERY few people spent years of their life building a racer, OR a "CONDOMARAN"! They are a different sort of people.

90% of the (very different from this requirement) "production" designs out there, were OF COARSE not designed for this use. They were designed for short, occasional cruises, going mostly down wind, REALLY picking your weather, and spending 99% of their life tied to a dock!

On the other end of the spectrum are racing boats, that can't carry a payload, have limited storage, don't offer enough protection or comfort for a middle aged couple as crew, and don't even have necessities like stanchions, a place for a dinghy, or an anchor roller. This also is NOT a cruising boat, nor fits its requirements. Their designers didn't mean for it too either.

The problem becomes when people (out of ignorance)... buy one of the majority of these ill suited boats, mostly in the first group, and set out for serious long distance long term cruising, anyway, in a boat that has no wing clearance, and in many other ways, is utterly unsuited to it.

In all categories of hull preference, but even more so in production cats, The % of designs that fill the cruising boat's requirements, are in the neighborhood of 5 to 10% at best.

One needs to choose from that < 10%, a design & builder that can provide a boat suitable to their needs. Far too many cruisers ignore this common sense rule.

My friend Jeff's self designed, self built cat, for example, filled those requirements well. It had crossed oceans, cruised extensively, and you could buzz the dinghy right through the wing tunnel. Of all of these requirements, #1 is: YOU NEED GOOD WING CLEARANCE! There are boatyards all over the world that have multihulls in them, that ignored this rule, and now have so much structural damage that they could go no further.

M.

Now that was really well stated.

[colemj]

Originally Posted by Mark Johnson

You missed my point... Since this is not "Daysailor's Forum", or "Racer's Forum", I assumed we were referring to REAL cruising boat requirements, not that of "armchair cruisers"...

I was ONLY referring to what makes a good "cruising" boat, which by definition means covering many thousands of sea miles, continuously or off and on, in relative comfort... (for years), and unfortunately, seeing a LOT of going to windward, and a LOT of REALLY bad weather. Some will be dangerous and terrifying! This is the life of a "true cruising boat", and calls for a cruising boat design.

Most production boats... Cat, Tri, or monohull, are not GOOD cruising designs. The market for "real cruising boats" is too small. A much higher % of "one offs", are built to a good cruising boat design, and make a good choice, IF you can find a really well built one. VERY few people spent years of their life building a racer, OR a "CONDOMARAN"! They are a different sort of people.

90% of the (very different from this requirement) "production" designs out there, were OF COARSE not designed for this use. They were designed for short, occasional cruises, going mostly down wind, REALLY picking your weather, and spending 99% of their life tied to a dock!

On the other end of the spectrum are racing boats, that can't carry a payload, have limited storage, don't offer enough protection or comfort for a middle aged couple as crew, and don't even have necessities like stanchions, a place for a dinghy, or an anchor roller. This also is NOT a cruising boat, nor fits its requirements. Their designers didn't mean for it too either.

The problem becomes when people (out of ignorance)... buy one of the majority of these ill suited boats, mostly in the first group, and set out for serious long distance long term cruising, anyway, in a boat that has no wing clearance, and in many other ways, is utterly unsuited to it.

In all categories of hull preference, but even more so in production cats, The % of designs that fill the cruising boat's requirements, are in the neighborhood of 5 to 10% at best.

One needs to choose from that < 10%, a design & builder that can provide a boat suitable to their needs. Far too many cruisers ignore this common sense rule.

My friend Jeff's self designed, self built cat, for example, filled those requirements well. It had crossed oceans, cruised extensively, and you could buzz the dinghy right through the wing tunnel. Of all of these requirements, #1 is: YOU NEED GOOD WING CLEARANCE! There are boatyards all over the world that have multihulls in them, that ignored this rule, and now have so much structural damage that they could go no further.

M.

There are certainly a lot of us ignorant people out here, as the vast majority of boats cruising and sailing around the world do not fit your definition of a cruising boat.

And somehow most of us have managed to escape without any structural damage. I haven't been to any boatyards with all these structurally damaged boats. I've travelled from New England down the US East Coast, through the Eastern Carib, Venezuela, Columbia and Panama - shouldn't I have run into these yards and boats by now?

The very few boats with structural damage I have seen have been a couple of new catamarans condemned from the factory and several old wood trimarans. The catamarans were build execution flaws and not design flaws. The trimarans were just old boats that someone got cheaply and didn't do any upkeep.

The Pardeys and Leonard/Starzinger often talk about how few storms and really bad weather they encounter and how few times they need to beat ferociously to windward. In fact, these are points they specifically make in their writings and talks to new and potential cruisers.

If you are going to be pedantic about "real cruising boats", you are going to be beat to shreds as soon as the "only a heavy, full-keeled, slack bilge, pirateship-looking" crowd jumps in. And you will only be saved when the "only a double-ender" and "only wood/steel" crowds start beating on them.

Where are you cruising and how do you treat your boat?

Mark