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Old 15-11-2014, 02:59   #31
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Re: Best cat for extended cruising

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Originally Posted by SamFrederick View Post
Tankage has been an issue I was wondering about. After I narrowed down my choices a bit I was going to ask about efficiency for some of these models. At this point, without actually seeing any of them in person, we keep coming back to the Lagoon 45. What kind of fuel consumption are people getting with these on extended trips. I know it will depend on wind and weather, but on a flat day with now sails up, what are people finding is the optimal cruising speed/consumption? (GPH or LPH?)
What about consumption with the generator running? Does anyone have any idea of what they would typically burn just with the generator for a week long trip with a full boat? I'm thinking of a charter scenario where we weren't being quite as conscious of power usage as we would be if it were just the two of us or just friends....

As I say, once we narrow down our choices a bit more I'll dig into this a bit deeper to help with the final decision...


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Assuming the use of 1 engine on the 440 with a regular 2 blade cheapie fixed prop (the other creates a bit of drag of course) - we achieve the following:

1800 rpm Sog 5.0 knts = 3.8 ltrs per hr
2200 rpm 7.0 knts = 5.0 ltrs per hr
3000 rpm 9.1 knts = 12.0 ltrs per hr

This on calm days with little to no wind and is an average we have found cruising on our Yanmar 54 HP engine with SD 50 saildrive. Of course a lot depends on the weight one has loaded the vessel to!

Our Onan 7/9 KVA genset averages 1/2 LOAD = 1.5 ltrs per hour
FULL LOAD = 2.8 ltrs per hour

It pays to have mean alternators on the motors like Balmars when under motor so the genset does not have to work in addition. Of course that requires a decent battery bank and serious inverters like the Victrons (we have 2 working together) to run the aircons whilst under way ...
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Old 15-11-2014, 04:45   #32
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Re: Best cat for extended cruising

Oh and another thing related to fuel consumption and speed of course is 'Prop pitch' ... our cheap fixed 2 blade props are 17 x 17"
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Old 15-11-2014, 13:12   #33
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Re: Best cat for extended cruising

Met with the lagoon rep and the lagoon rep today.

Unfortunately the weather is horrible this weekend and the road to the marina got blocked so still haven't gotten to see a lagoon in person! We have been planning on a used boat, but he was quite convincing on the reasons to go new and the cost was significantly less then I expected! The price for a nicely outfitted boat was less than most of the used ones I have seen on the market!
He also had some vey good ideas for buying the boat without a generator, air con, water makers, etc and instead installing some systems he's worked with that we could get for half the price of what they would cost installed by lagoon and we will get a lot more out of them. (I actually have a lot of contacts for these things so can get some excellent pricing on my own. I never really considered this as an option! I'm familiar with most of the systems he was discussing as well so I know it's not a compromise on quality.)
Part of that discussion was about the variable pitch props. Does anyone have any recommendations on good props or ones to avoid? The the brands he was talking about feather for sailing, but don't fold away like some that I've seen. I would assume this would cause slightly more drag than a folding prop, but would it be enough to really be noticeable? Any major downsides to a prop that feathers but doesn't fold?

I did manage to get onto the Leopard 44. I definitely would want at least the 48 in the Leopard. I like the idea of the forward cockpit, bit I think the way it is set up takes a bit too much space from the salon. I'm not completely sold on it. It also has just the raised helm station as opposed to the full fly bridge. It looks like a very well appointed helm station, but I think that fly bridge would be a great bonus space to have...
Another concern I had about the Leopard was the location of the life raft. It is stored in a latched cabinet in the cockpit. I'm used to life rafts being exposed with automatic releases in case the boat sinks before you can release it. I know the Lagoon has a slot in the transom and I've seen at least one other boat that has it tucked into the bow. Will the Taft on the lagoon automatically deploy? Or does it have to be manually pulled free as well! I know this is a small thing in the overall plan, but considering the trips we will be taking, I do think it is a very important point...
Other than that the boat was very nice. Cabins and berths looked decent sized and lots of little storage areas. Pumps and tanks looked well laid out and easy to get to. I'd still like to look at the 48 and see the difference...
If anyone is looking for a new Leopard 44, they do have a pretty good price on the demo boat in Nice. I think he said it was delivered last May, and it is a very stripped down version, but they are only asking I think 380k euros or somewhere around there...

Thank you for the fuel consumptions. That is a huge help in planning!

Hoping I can actually get onto a Lagoon next month when I'm back in the states for the holidays, and there are a few others I still want to check out while I'm at it. If the actually trip is half as fun as this part I've got some good times ahead! I'm loving this!

Thank you again everyone for all the help and input so far. Keep it coming! I'm looking forward to getting out there and hopefully running into a few of you along the way for a cold, exotic beer in a hot, exotic location!



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Old 15-11-2014, 13:30   #34
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Re: Best cat for extended cruising

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I vote for the Antares 44i
I thought that too till I saw the Maverick.
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Old 15-11-2014, 14:45   #35
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Re: Best cat for extended cruising

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Originally Posted by SamFrederick View Post
Met with the lagoon rep and the lagoon rep today.... We have been planning on a used boat, but he was quite convincing on the reasons to go new and the cost was significantly less then I expected!
OF COURSE he was convincing! That's his job! I have two good friends who bought new Lagoons in the last several years and both were disasters. One has gotten rid of his already and the other is seriously thinking about it - he hasn't done it already because he's put so much money into it. Another close friend bought a new Leopard 48 a little over a year and is planning to get rid of it as soon as it's sellable - leaking fuel tanks, among other problems. These are the only close friends I know who bought new boats so that's 3 for 3.

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He also had some vey good ideas for buying the boat without a generator, air con, water makers, etc and instead installing some systems he's worked with that we could get for half the price of what they would cost installed by lagoon and we will get a lot more out of them.
Generally you can install options yourself WAY cheaper than the factory. Again, of course he wants you to get him to install stuff.

Quote:
Part of that discussion was about the variable pitch props. Does anyone have any recommendations on good props or ones to avoid? The the brands he was talking about feather for sailing, but don't fold away like some that I've seen. I would assume this would cause slightly more drag than a folding prop, but would it be enough to really be noticeable? Any major downsides to a prop that feathers but doesn't fold?
Not much difference in drag between folders and featherers. Folders are simple, but suffer a bit in reverse vs featherers. Featherers are generally more complicated and more expensive, but some allow you to adjust the pitch. But there is absolutely no reason why the proper diameter and pitch can't be figured out before you buy and you buy the right props - especially for production boats with lots of history. For this reason, having adjustable pitch is not necessary, IMHO. I know lots of folks with a wide variety of folders and featherers and no major brand stands out to avoid. Most folks are happy with theirs and don't remark about them until they have to get new ones. For the record I've had Volvo folders for many years and have been happy with them. I just bought replacement Flex-O-Fold (because the Volvos are worn out) based on recommendations of other former Volvo owners who switched to FOF and report a little better performance and they're cheaper and the hubs can be resplined (the Volvo hubs can't be).

Good luck finding that used boat.

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Old 15-11-2014, 16:09   #36
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Re: Best cat for extended cruising

Hmmmm - have to say I agree with 2Hulls about the sales rep.

I would not place too much on what he says there to be honest. When they sold Impi to us, the agent told me the boat was fully loaded for deep sea cruising and at the time I was a total 'green horn'. We ended up spending AT LEAST 1/3 of the value of the boat very quickly again in setting her up ...and heaps more if we consider what we have done since.

Go see Kent at Just Catamarans in FL if you are from there and ask him to give you a breakdown of setting up a boat the way you want it.

Secondly, yes, the pricing of the Lagoons for what one gets is AMAZING and mostly because they are manufacturing so many boats due to popularity ... they definitely are 'a lot of boat' for the money you will pay when compared to many other makes ... but DON'T be fooled between the price of a new boat verses a GOOD used boat fully equipped for cruising. All new boats (unless you are exceptionally lucky) have issues that need sorting out and the manufacturer will do his best to dodge any warranty obligations.

In fact, on Impi I eventually was so disillusioned that at huge expense just decided to go ahead and do all warranty work for my own pocket ... just couldn't be bothered with the agent or manufacturer any longer and because I was a 'greenhorn' I was more accepting of the agents explanations of what was to be for my pocket.

Looking back on it with a wealth of experience now gained, the agent and manufacturer got away with murder ... that would not happen again! I most certainly would have been better off having purchased a good used boat with all systems installed. By the way ... it took us 2 years of me being full time on Impi with all technicians (I am a bit of a fussy sort) to get her ready for departure ... that's a big chunk of time in ones cruising life. There are some GREAT used boats out there ... in better than new condition. If you saw our videos earlier in your post you will see a boat that most cruisers out here refer to as 'showroom condition' ... but many features you see there are not the standard factory built items ... including the cabinet in the cockpit with the washing machine. We replaced the entire cabinet with a new taller one to accommodate the washing machine and a 3rd fridge. I mention this because for a person buying Impi for example (and it's not for sale) would be getting a bargain if I sold her at the price of a new vessel.

Also, what does a new vessel come with in terms of safety equipment for example .. just go and do a pricing exercise on all the additional safety equipment you will buy ... it will shock you. A used boat probably will come with all those included.

Have to agree on your comments about the fly bridge. Many cruisers will 'shoot that down' as a negative on the lagoons, but by far and away all those same folks out here who have talked negative about it have been converted when actually sailing with us on Impi. It is one terrific feature and we will never be without a bridge on any boat we purchase ever again. Ironically, it is the spot both Ana and I head for when the conditions at sea become 'overwhelming' for us ... somehow up there the boat just feels calmer and one gets away from the noises of waves and so on in rough seas when up there ... one becomes part of the boat ... feels the conditions and the situation more ... many cruisers have been surprised by this, so as a first question to those who see it as a negative ... 'have you actually been on the bridge under sail sir?' It is one of the best features of these boats. On the 450 (and we looked recently to replace the 440 with the 450) we felt the cutaway in the roof to bring the stairs inside the 'patio' was a step in the wrong direction. You would need to build some 'dodger' to prevent the 'area on the patio from becoming wet in rain and rough seas. We like the fact that on the 440 this entire living area is a dry area. The steps also encroach over the bed area but thats a minor ... I am just fussy about space!

I heard a rumour that Lagoon were considering bringing out a boat (450) without the bridge in order to get costs down as an option ... to be more competitive with similar craft in the charter market. So, the bridge does cost a lot more in the manufacturing process ... quite amazing when you look at the price of a new vessel.

As for props ... I often think it would be nicer to have the drag aspect of the props removed from Impi ... but in all honesty, she flies anyway! We have lost a few props to floating objects (like rope off panama) and it has been great to have 'cheapies' to replace the damaged ones ...
I spoke with the Yanmar agents about issues with slipping cone clutch drives on the SD 50's .. he said they were struggling especially more with boats that are equipped with folding props. He says the clutch does not like the sudden 'grab' as the bladse open in forward or reverse so although I am not qualified on props, would probably lean toward the 'variable pitch / feathering' type. Still ... if you buy new and pay extra for them ... ask about keeping the original cheapies as back up for emergencies if you go new.

If you are buying a used boat and everything looks terrific, I would price a new set of sails anyway if you are doing long distances from home! Add the price of a new main, genoa and assymetric sail to the list.

We trust this helps with your decision making ... don't write off more expensive used boats comparing the price to new ... find out what is on the boat already ... it could save you heaps of money and a lot of time and frustration as the teething problems are already ironed out. Just use a surveyor to check it through for you! cheers
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Old 16-11-2014, 03:19   #37
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Re: Best cat for extended cruising

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OF COURSE he was convincing! That's his job! I have two good friends who bought new Lagoons in the last several years and both were disasters. One has gotten rid of his already and the other is seriously thinking about it - he hasn't done it already because he's put so much money into it. Another close friend bought a new Leopard 48 a little over a year and is planning to get rid of it as soon as it's sellable - leaking fuel tanks, among other problems. These are the only close friends I know who bought new boats so that's 3 for 3.

2 Hulls Dave
I think this could give the impression that Lagoon and Leopard are bad boats, and I disagree to that. BTW, just met a guy across the dock sailing a one month old "quality brand" cat, and a shortage in an interior light bulb took out the whole electronic system.

I like to claim that all (or nearly all) catamarans from the established manufacturers are great products. You cannot go wrong but they are built to a certain spec being a mix of; Quality, Price, Performance, Space, Features, etc. A Outremer is faster higher quality than a Lagoon, but offers less space and is more expensive. An Antaris has higher quality and have more features than a Leopard, but it cost more.

The challenge for the buyer is to figure out what he/she is looking for. Are you prepared to pay for higher quality. Are you prepared to take a space hit for performance. And more, and more. They are all great products but there isn't a free lunch out there.

In my opinion, I would be careful about is buying a new catamaran where the same model also goes in charter. Charter boats get a lot of use hence depreciate a lot. When it comes time to sell yours that hasn't been in charter I don't think you get much premium. I just bought such a privately used boat, lightly used (like gennaker used twice), low hours, never seen an ocean, 6 years old, for 50% of the 2008 list price. Question is if you would be prepared to take the same financial hit.
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Old 16-11-2014, 08:26   #38
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Re: Best cat for extended cruising

In my opinion, I would be careful about is buying a new catamaran where the same model also goes in charter. Charter boats get a lot of use hence depreciate a lot. When it comes time to sell yours that hasn't been in charter I don't think you get much premium.[/QUOTE]



Hmmm ... respectfully said ... not really the case ... unless I am misunderstanding you here?

Are you referring to a boat that has been IN a charter fleet or to a used one that is of the same model made for charter companies but not chartered?

Point in case - There are plenty of people for example searching for 440's and are prepared to pay a premium for GOOD USED ones ... many folks right here on CF ask me all the time when I am going to sell ... I've even had some great offers!

Ok .. we are an owner version which is not for the charter fleet, but being a world cruiser, I would most certainly be looking for a boat (not in a charter fleet) that is heavily sold for charter work ... reason being that spares are more readily available for these around the world. I would pay a premium for that feature alone!

I see many sailors with makes that are less popular and more expensive / exclusive, struggling out here to get themselves sorted out with technical issues ... and mostly, those boats get nowhere near what they should on the 2nd hand market. Serious cruisers sailing around the world in remote areas want to have access to spares, technical help and so on. The more models built by a factory ... the more feedback ... the more upgrades ... the better the build ... and those tried and tested models will attract good returns if the vessel has been well maintained and is in good condition.

I would guess its like travelling through darkest Africa. Does one take a Toyota (which is what most rental companies offer and what most people drive) or do you take an Audi? And when it comes time to sell ... which car will pull the best value in relation to the initial purchase price ... where I come from ... the Toyota every time!

Most folks that buy serious performance boats are not looking for what they will get for it when they sell ... they have the moola ... they want a toy with speed and they will buy it for that reason ... because they can. It's usually those boats that depreciate faster and they have a limited market (less people able to buy in that bracket) come time to sell.
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Old 16-11-2014, 08:28   #39
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Re: Best cat for extended cruising

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Originally Posted by Sail IC View Post
I think this could give the impression that Lagoon and Leopard are bad boats, and I disagree to that. BTW, just met a guy across the dock sailing a one month old "quality brand" cat, and a shortage in an interior light bulb took out the whole electronic system.

I like to claim that all (or nearly all) catamarans from the established manufacturers are great products. You cannot go wrong but they are built to a certain spec being a mix of; Quality, Price, Performance, Space, Features, etc. A Outremer is faster higher quality than a Lagoon, but offers less space and is more expensive. An Antaris has higher quality and have more features than a Leopard, but it cost more.

The challenge for the buyer is to figure out what he/she is looking for. Are you prepared to pay for higher quality. Are you prepared to take a space hit for performance. And more, and more. They are all great products but there isn't a free lunch out there.

In my opinion, I would be careful about is buying a new catamaran where the same model also goes in charter. Charter boats get a lot of use hence depreciate a lot. When it comes time to sell yours that hasn't been in charter I don't think you get much premium. I just bought such a privately used boat, lightly used (like gennaker used twice), low hours, never seen an ocean, 6 years old, for 50% of the 2008 list price. Question is if you would be prepared to take the same financial hit.

Hmmm ... respectfully said ... not really the case ... unless I am misunderstanding you here?

Are you referring to a boat that has been IN a charter fleet or to a used one that is of the same model made for charter companies but not chartered?

Point in case - There are plenty of people for example searching for 440's and are prepared to pay a premium for GOOD USED ones ... many folks right here on CF ask me all the time when I am going to sell ... I've even had some great offers!

Ok .. we are an owner version which is not for the charter fleet, but being a world cruiser, I would most certainly be looking for a boat (not in a charter fleet) that is heavily sold for charter work ... reason being that spares are more readily available for these around the world. I would pay a premium for that feature alone!

I see many sailors with makes that are less popular and more expensive / exclusive, struggling out here to get themselves sorted out with technical issues ... and mostly, those boats get nowhere near what they should on the 2nd hand market. Serious cruisers sailing around the world in remote areas want to have access to spares, technical help and so on. The more models built by a factory ... the more feedback ... the more upgrades ... the better the build ... and those tried and tested models will attract good returns if the vessel has been well maintained and is in good condition.

I would guess its like travelling through darkest Africa. Does one take a Toyota (which is what most rental companies offer and what most people drive) or do you take an Audi? And when it comes time to sell ... which car will pull the best value in relation to the initial purchase price ... where I come from ... the Toyota every time!

Most folks that buy serious performance boats are not looking for what they will get for it when they sell ... they have the moola ... they want a toy with speed and they will buy it for that reason ... because they can. It's usually those boats that depreciate faster and they have a limited market (less people able to buy in that bracket) come time to sell.
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Old 16-11-2014, 09:03   #40
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Re: Best cat for extended cruising

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... but being a world cruiser, I would most certainly be looking for a boat (not in a charter fleet) that is heavily sold for charter work ... reason being that spares are more readily available for these around the world. I would pay a premium for that feature alone!
Yes, there's something to be said for that - if you need a rudder, for instance, or some part that is specific to your boat model. You might be able to get that part quicker, although not necessarily cheaper, from the builder.

All boats are primarily made up of piece parts that the boat builder obtains from widely available sources. A Yanmar is a Yanmar, a Force 10 stove is a Force 10 stove, a Lewmar windlass is a Lewmar windlass. They are not a 440 Yanmar or a Lagoon Yanmar. Anyone who goes to Lagoon to get an engine part is nuts - and I doubt anyone does this. Even model specific items like saloon windows are nothing but shaped and cut acrylic, for the most part. Acrylic sheet is widely available. I've owned my boat for 8 years and have never used Catana as a parts source, including replacing rudders, saloon windows, sails - everything I have replaced. This is one of the darkly enjoyable aspects of boat ownership - getting stuff you need cheaper and better than what the builder can sell you. Of course this goes for pieces of the piece parts too - what Volvo owner doesn't enjoy finding that identical Prestolite Leece Neville starter for a fraction of the cost of the replacement starter direct from Volvo. That green paint is really expensive.

There are very capable "charter" boats - boats built primarily for the charter trade - suitable for worldwide cruising and out there doing it right now. But they were still designed for the one week charter party - what cruising couple needs three or four heads on their boat? Maybe a family does. Better to use that space for storage.

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Old 16-11-2014, 10:00   #41
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Re: Best cat for extended cruising

my old solaris 42 is so comfortable .. when i bought it was thinking about winding up in ecuador for a year or two but have never been past the perlas islands with it ,, i am not much of a sailor been a power boat man all my life so having twin 50 hp yanmars is convenient ,, was so proud of how well the performed until bad fuel ruined the injector pump and injectors ,, now i am finding out with yanmar all parts are yanmar and the cost is what ever they say it is ,, the money i spent on her was like investing in an apartment rather than a sail boat so have run out of funds for real work that needs to be done ,, looking to sell her or a " partner " in a boat here in panama ... for a while i was going to toboga island pretty much every weekend word of mouth ionly never pushed it and charged 125 to 250 per trip ,, jsut enough to justify taking her out but was a party experience as every body wanted to take turns running the boat ,, hardly ever had enough wind to justify sailing as coming back it was pretty much in your face ,, any input or interest in doing something speak up as open to suggestions ,, ps gonna cost me 3500 to 4 grand before i got starboard motor back online
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Old 16-11-2014, 13:29   #42
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Re: Best cat for extended cruising

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Yes, there's something to be said for that - if you need a rudder, for instance, or some part that is specific to your boat model. You might be able to get that part quicker, although not necessarily cheaper, from the builder.

All boats are primarily made up of piece parts that the boat builder obtains from widely available sources. A Yanmar is a Yanmar, a Force 10 stove is a Force 10 stove, a Lewmar windlass is a Lewmar windlass. They are not a 440 Yanmar or a Lagoon Yanmar. Anyone who goes to Lagoon to get an engine part is nuts - and I doubt anyone does this. Even model specific items like saloon windows are nothing but shaped and cut acrylic, for the most part. Acrylic sheet is widely available. I've owned my boat for 8 years and have never used Catana as a parts source, including replacing rudders, saloon windows, sails - everything I have replaced. This is one of the darkly enjoyable aspects of boat ownership - getting stuff you need cheaper and better than what the builder can sell you. Of course this goes for pieces of the piece parts too - what Volvo owner doesn't enjoy finding that identical Prestolite Leece Neville starter for a fraction of the cost of the replacement starter direct from Volvo. That green paint is really expensive.

There are very capable "charter" boats - boats built primarily for the charter trade - suitable for worldwide cruising and out there doing it right now. But they were still designed for the one week charter party - what cruising couple needs three or four heads on their boat? Maybe a family does. Better to use that space for storage.

2 Hulls Dave
Agree completely. My boat manufacturer is not even in business anymore and I have no problem getting things repaired like any other boat. I need things from the maker of systems but not the boat builder. If I ever need anything specific about it, I go to VPLP, the designers, and they are graciously helpful. You need to be careful about folks being overly complimentary of boats they own.
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Old 16-11-2014, 17:46   #43
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Re: Best cat for extended cruising

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Agree completely. My boat manufacturer is not even in business anymore and I have no problem getting things repaired like any other boat. I need things from the maker of systems but not the boat builder. If I ever need anything specific about it, I go to VPLP, the designers, and they are graciously helpful. You need to be careful about folks being overly complimentary of boats they own.

I agree completely too ... I think the point I was referring to is that models built for charter do not depreciate because boat owners buy those models for themselves ... The availability for spares in our experience has been more often there as a result of having systems used on most charter boats. Recently I helped out some folks on their Amel for example who could not get spare parts for a winch on their boom without waiting for importation of those spare parts ... Mates of ours on an Outremer had to wait for importation of certain spare parts in Raiatea because the charter companies did not carry those spares for their boats. Of course they can be repaired over a bit more time but we have found... Be it lagoon, leopard, catana or other charter type boat ... In general spares were more readily available than for other vessels. Of course this is our experience in remote areas. Anyway, I take the point ... Happy sailing guys !



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Old 17-11-2014, 00:09   #44
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Re: Best cat for extended cruising

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Originally Posted by Therapy View Post
I thought that too till I saw the Maverick.

Maverick is a great boat built by great folks ... we know the architect and owner very well ... they are wonderful people with years of cruising under the belt. In fact we sailed alongside one with the naval architect for that vessel ... we were impressed with the Maverick
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Old 17-11-2014, 15:11   #45
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Re: Best cat for extended cruising

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Originally Posted by impi View Post
Maverick is a great boat built by great folks ... we know the architect and owner very well ... they are wonderful people with years of cruising under the belt. In fact we sailed alongside one with the naval architect for that vessel ... we were impressed with the Maverick
FWIW...

There is some current and very troubling material about Maverick on another forum.

We too were initially impressed with the Maverick and test-sailed one while in Cape Town. Subsequent events made us very happy we did not proceed there; those same events leave us now inclined to find the current troubling reports to be credible.
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