Atlantic 57 Catamaran Capsized

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by Polux

But there is a big diference regarding a cat: A monohull cannot be capsized by wind alone while a cat can.

Really? Actually I think we all know that, especially after you having stated it several hundred times..

And if you were truly unbiased (LOL) you might also occasionally mention that a monohull can sink when there is NO wind whatsoever.

It might also be mentioned that when a cat capsizes there are usually survivors to tell the story. Monohulls all too frequently disappear without a trace.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

Really? Actually I think we all know that, especially after you having stated it several hundred times..

And if you were truly unbiased (LOL) you might also occasionally mention that a monohull can sink when there is NO wind whatsoever.

It might also be mentioned that when a cat capsizes there are usually survivors to tell the story. Monohulls all too frequently disappear without a trace.

This is not any kind of contest regarding cats and monos and I would like to center it on the issue: the Atlantic 57 capsize and the capsize of similar performance cruisers at a considerable percentage in what concerns the number of sister boats.

It seems that not all know that a monohull (class A) cannot be inverted by wind alone and I was responding to someone that said it could.

All boat can sink including cats even if cats ten to float more when inverted. I believe all know that. Regarding cats capsized or sunk, some have the luck to survive to tell the story, others not, a bit like in what regards monohulls.

I agree that in what regards a cat capsize by wind without considerable seas there is not normally a survival problem, if the rescue services can be called, but the same can be said regarding a monohull that sinks in the same circumstances. Plenty of time to deploy the liferaft and not any problem.

The victims on both sides happen when the boat a cap is inverted or sunk on a storm and big seas. The same in what regards a monohull that sink on those circumstances.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by Polux

All boat can sink including cats.

Including SOME cats. A minority. Most cats will remain afloat regardless what happens. As will SOME mono's. Again, a minority. Most can sink. Even if the weather is perfect. Whereas a cat will not capsize in calm weather.

[neilpride]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

Really? Actually I think we all know that, especially after you having stated it several hundred times..

And if you were truly unbiased (LOL) you might also occasionally mention that a monohull can sink when there is NO wind whatsoever.

It might also be mentioned that when a cat capsizes there are usually survivors to tell the story. Monohulls all too frequently disappear without a trace.

You know some multis sunk to, you know that .....

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by Polux

but the same can be said regarding a monohull that sinks in the same circumstances. Plenty of time to deploy the liferaft and not any problem.

Except when the liferaft fails to inflate.....

[Factor]

Originally Posted by Polux

No but I can post a video of it.

Oh well, thats different, you have seen a video, I have only sailed it, raced against it, known the owner, talked with the designer, but clearly seeing a video beats that.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by Just Another Sa

There is no reason why a monohull could not be capsized by wind alone. Even up to 180 degrees or more. Begin with wind on the bare mast and finish off with wind pressure on the hull. It just happens to be extremely rare event.
Either widspeeds of a hurricane, or same windpressure with much less windspeed but significantly more (10 X) density of the fluid, some water droplets in the air is all it takes, be it heavy rain or waterspout.

Frankly,this is simply wrong, unless the ballast keel has fallen off. The righting moment of the keel is quite effective when at 90 deg, there is little surface exposed to the wind and it is in a somewhat low drag shape.

You say that just because it has never happened in the known history of yachting is no proof that it can't happen... a telling argument...NOT!

Your credibility has taken a big hit with this one...

Jim

[CookiesnTequila]

I have a trick question for all you children. Why is it that I never see cat owners start a catamaran/mono pissing matches when a mono sinks or is lost?

[smj]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Frankly,this is simply wrong, unless the ballast keel has fallen off. The righting moment of the keel is quite effective when at 90 deg, there is little surface exposed to the wind and it is in a somewhat low drag shape.



You say that just because it has never happened in the known history of yachting is no proof that it can't happen... a telling argument...NOT!



Your credibility has taken a big hit with this one...



Jim

Considering your wife's previous post I'm surprised you're entering this pissing match!


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Factor

Oh well, thats different, you have seen a video, I have only sailed it, raced against it, known the owner, talked with the designer, but clearly seeing a video beats that.

Sometime it is difficult to understand you. What makes a cruising boat is a boat with a cruising interior, not being fast or slow. Obviously that boat has a cruising interior with all things needed for cruising, from a dinghy on davits to two heads, a saloon, a galley and all the rest. That adds weight on a race boat and race boats don't have cruising interiors for that reason.

It seems you only have sailed the boat and did not saw the interior, that's the only explanation that I have for mistaken that boat with a race boat. probably you did not saw the video either. Here you have it for you to look.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bC67iE5OYjs

A race boat has an interior like these ones, two ofhshore race boats: no windows, to warrant maximum strenght, sometimes not even paint not to add any weight, and look at the heads:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymgiZTeKyqg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wL3AQT-Flzk&t=313s

Can you see the diference?

[eiasu]

It is a pity that so many experienced sailors here could contribute much more interesting info and facts rather then going in the old usual fight mono/multi, looks like who like mono will like the mono and who likes multi will like the multi, no matter how many of that sink, capsize or whatsoever.

To me when I read both the story of the capsizes, Anna and this recent other Atlantic 57 looks like was both on weather circunstances quite fine with a sudden, abroupt, more or less difficoult to predict, wind gust very powerful, call it how you want it.
Did not happen in rough seas and very hard winds, maybe is this the inducted weak point of this sailing on a fast large cat like the atlantic 57?
It also got my attention a post of the crew of Anna, dont remember if the owner or the kiwi sailor, who wrote that the Atlantic 57 sails so fast and stable that the ipotesis and the risk of the capsize just disappear from the mind scenario, until this strong 62mph wind gust flip Anna like a Hobie Cat.
I have great respect for the concern and the worrings of Chris White to provide a sailing boat safe and fast and find ways to make sailing a more safe experience.
best greeting to all you sailing lovers
Eiasu

[Polux]

On topic again. I had a look at the hulls of those chamberlain 14 and TS 52 that have a percentage of capsizes even higher than the ones of the Atlantic 57 and they don't have those small fixed keels so I guess that the high percentage of capsizes on the Atlantic 57 it is not related with the keels.

But fact is that Catanas and Outremer, even if both have experienced capsizes, have a lot more boats on the water and the percentage of capsizes is much, much smaller. I will try to look at the differences in design namely if the sail area/displacement are similar or if there are any difference that stands for that much superior safety record in what regards capsizes.

[beiland]

Originally Posted by malbert73

Well here's a little firsthand and secondhand info to spruce things up after I waded thru these pages.
I was lucky enough to go for a sail/rig testing day sail on Leopard with my friend who's a pro captain and sailmaker a couple of years ago. What a great boat. Easily sailed at 11-13 knots in same true wind. Definitely high performance- you could feel the accel/decel instantly in puffs and lulls. Chris White was out on the boat as well and you can tell he's just a super guy who is really knowledgeable and passionate about his boats.
The layout actually is amazing. You can steer from inside just behind cockpit with great view if you want protection, but forward gives better view and sail control access than any other cat I've been on. Totally solves the peeking over a wall to steer or feeling like you're 20 feet up as most other cruising cats choose- both of which have merits but just don't appeal to me.
And yes, Leopard had very robust and easily accessed escape hatches in each hull. I must have spent 30 min just sitting in the hull watching water whoosh by the hatch at 12 knots [emoji3]

My friend is close with the captain of Leopard and they are all pretty certain this was a freak severe microburst/waterspout phenomenon. This friend used to captain a Swan 56 back and forth from med to caribbean to US and relays similar occurrence with a similar microburst/waterspout just north of Sardinia in the Swan- they were motoring with the main up (no Genoa) dead calm and then suddenly the mast tip was in the water to port - in two seconds - then upright and then bam mast in the water to starboard then upright again and back to dead calm. A bit of a mess below but were able to sail on.


I'd happily own and cruise an Atlantic cat or other performance multi. I think this extremely rare occurrence may be the one weather phenomenon where a mono may have an edge on a multi based on these accounts. Wouldn't be enough for me to pick mono/multi though- but enough to make me cautious in squally conditions... I own a mono but like politics I am an independent and am always frustrated by either/or arguments I read here on CF. neither mono or multi is perfect in all conditions and you have to pick what you want. Multis have a lot going for them. May be my next boat, but recognizing that a knockdown in a multi while much rarer than in a mono is possible and terminal

Thanks for that informative posting, and intelligent summation.

[topmast]

Could it be that you can get caught by a wind with your name on even when you're on an invincible big cat while the more cautious has lowered most and standing by with a knife. Attitude of drivers of Volvos feeling safe because they're in a tank show this by leaving them in auto wreckers with the bow stove in (more than any other make)

[arsenelupiga]

one can release sheet in <2 seconds if stand by which i understand someone was. Knife even faster. There is no way wind can come from 20 to 100 in less than 2 seconds as air acts like fluid and disturbances/accelatrations will be felt earlier.

why noone believes cat was capsized due to hull tunnel & light weight combination ? Looks like 100 Kn in right direction will do the trick if heavy lagoon can be done in 150.

I have experienced sudden wind changes, but so far they were always preceded by sudden temp changes, or unusual colours or moisture.

Someone mentioned enclosures separate from outside - alter temp perception and plastic windows alter visibility.