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Old 14-07-2009, 09:20   #1
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Asking Price vs Selling Price - Caribbean Cats?

In my area (Turkey) and for monohulls the situation now is that most monos offered at a price of 100k$, would actually be for sale at a price of 60k$ app.

I've been wondering what the situation would be if I was looking for a cat in the 150k - 200k$ range in the Gulf/Carribean region?
I know that would depend on a lot of factors, but I'm just trying to get a general idea of the market situation.
Anyone care to share his thoughts/experiences?
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Old 14-07-2009, 09:46   #2
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Another consideration are taxes, fees and other costs associated with importing a boat.
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Old 14-07-2009, 09:49   #3
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actually I am not going to import it, was planning to sail in the Caribbean area
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Old 18-07-2009, 19:26   #4
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It depends a lot on the type of cat and its past history. Right now the best bargins are Cane and Roberts Cats coming out of the Moorings fleet. They can be had for less then 50 cents on the dollar from their purchase prices 5 years ago. This is because of the economy, poor maintenance on the Moorings part and the sheer number of boats the Moorings dumps on the market every June. All charter cats are down on price but the Moorings boats seem to have taken by far the biggest hit.
If you are looking at a non charter cat in a owners configeration then prices are going to be much higher. The economy in general means there will be bargins but not anything like a former charter boat.
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Old 18-07-2009, 19:32   #5
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Bargains are never as easy to find as when times are great. When you have extra money others are willing to sell low knowing the deal could close. The really good boats that might be for sale are being held back rather than being sold for a low price. People that can afford to maintain boats won't be selling a boat now because they don't have to. The concern in these times is that the boat is trashed and has not been kept up. In the haste for a quick sale they lower the price only to find a sucker that can't see the neglect. Caution would always be the advice when times are too good or not looking great.
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Old 18-07-2009, 19:38   #6
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I must disagree with Sailvi. When I consider "value", I think in terms of actual worth. In that context, a used/abused x-charter boat has substantially less value inherent in it than a it's contemporary non-charter equivalent.

Although you may well find many x-charter boats at a reduced cost, it is probably because of the fact it's value has been reduced by the abuse and/or lack of maintenance a real owner would have used caring for the boat.
In other words, it may be a "bargin" [sp] for the wrong reasons
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Old 18-07-2009, 20:41   #7
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A boat is only worth what you are willing to pay for it. Take into consideration condition, equipment etc. A friend of mine just bought a boat listed for $159k for $15k. He was fully aware of what was required to bring it back. The seller was reluctant but agreed in the end that it "needed work".
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Old 18-07-2009, 20:48   #8
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As someone looking to buy for a year now, I concur with Pblais. My experience is buyer beware. A great deal is someone hoping you won't see the problems they cannot afford. Good boats are holding the price because the owners can afford to keep them. The few that are "must sell" deals are bought through word of mouth and you have to be as lucky as winning the lottery.
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Old 19-07-2009, 04:55   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sailvi767 View Post
It depends a lot on the type of cat and its past history. Right now the best bargins are Cane and Roberts Cats coming out of the Moorings fleet. They can be had for less then 50 cents on the dollar from their purchase prices 5 years ago. This is because of the economy, poor maintenance on the Moorings part and the sheer number of boats the Moorings dumps on the market every June. All charter cats are down on price but the Moorings boats seem to have taken by far the biggest hit.
If you are looking at a non charter cat in a owners configeration then prices are going to be much higher. The economy in general means there will be bargins but not anything like a former charter boat.
I recently spent some time in the BVI to look at several charter catamarans both from different charter companies. Both were Leopard 47's and both maintained on completely different levels with the Moorings on top. I eventually chose to purchase a Moorings charter boat on a large part because of their maintenance schedule. Could you expand on what you mean by poor maintenance? As you probably know there is a service manual with required monthly and annual services done on alll boats, something that might not be able to be said of a private owner. The substantial savings is somewhat due to the fact that these boats have been depreciated vs. a private owner that is unable to recoup losses. The Moorings is said to be down 25-35% in charter bookings so I do feel this moves Moorings to reduce fleet however it is the owner who is selling not Moorings. With this being said, the Leopard 45/47 is a very strong, easily maintained, comfortable, with good performing catamaran to be bought with great value.
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Old 19-07-2009, 08:54   #10
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Thanks for all the info. It seems that every boat has to be looked at individually for potential problems, so my conclusion from this would be that the better the bargain seems to be, the more I - being the rather unexperienced person buying his first boat - should have that boat surveyed. That should at least give me some safety that the bargain won't turn into a nightmare.
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Old 19-07-2009, 09:15   #11
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Boat shopping has it's costs. Traveling far and wide adds a few thousand dollars and may require multiple trips. Our last boat cost $2000 in extra travel costs not including the trip home and repairs. We didn't have many repairs to make but had one episode that cost about $1000. Boats bought far away have to be brought home and that means work done in a place you are not familiar with over a short period of time. You might not find all the problems that fast.

It pays to exhaust the local (or close) boats for sale first. You learn more about looking at boats the more you look. The market forces in play are not as much global as they are local. You can only consider a small number of boats and the general trend is not easily extrapolated to the one boat you are considering. Compare the boat you see and like to any of the other boats you could and would really think about buying. When you do that the choices and the issues are clear and you can work the prices and extra expenditures to see what the better deal really is for you. Your sale won't change the global economy.

Quote:
A friend of mine just bought a boat listed for $159k for $15k.
Better deals happen when a willing and knowledgeable buyer meets a willing and knowledgeable seller. You have the least risk and the easiest time coming to terms. A boat listed at 10 times the selling price has an owner problem. They can be a nightmare to close and can come back to haunt you.
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Old 19-07-2009, 13:52   #12
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Boat shopping has it's costs...
... It pays to exhaust the local (or close) boats for sale first. You learn more about looking at boats the more you look...
Well said (Paul's whole post)!
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Old 20-07-2009, 11:55   #13
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I just purchased my boat. I got my pre-approval, had a knowlegable broker who knew what I wanted to spend and knew the market in regards to my model. He steered me away form the "disasters" in regard to boat conditon and owner condition. Then we waited. It took a almost a year, but the right boat came up, the owner wanted to sell pretty badly, I had the money waiting. That added to my negotiation leverage. In the end, I feel I got a good deal.
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Old 25-07-2009, 07:24   #14
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First I should point out that I think a 4700 from the Moorings fleet is a great bargin. I would however never advocate buying a boat without a top notch survey. The 4700's coming out of the Moorings fleet are providing great boats for many people. They will take some money to get in shape and sorted out with proper gear but still are a great boat at a great price.

As far as the Moorings I owned a boat with the Moorings for almost 6 years that has been sold. I now own a boat with another company. The Moorings has a maintenance schedule and all kinds of planned maintenance ect... None if it is being done or has been done for many years. There are no real records, boats are 18 months behind on their 6 month overhuals. Simple things like oil changes may or may not get done. I used my boat quite often with the Moorings. I would initial the oil filter on the engine and mark other service access areas. It was very clear fast that promised maintenance or even documented as done maintenance was not happening. Most Moorings owners are very upset with the state of maintenance there the last few years. The Moorings has promised improvements every year and every year the same complaints keep coming however with the merger with Sunsail and the loss of many jobs things are getting worse not better.
One of the things I find interesting about the Moorings program is the promised overhaul at the end of the contract. Why should that be needed? With the charter company I am with now I have felt every time I went down to the boat I would be happy to take it home. It does not need a overhaul since it is maintained properly all the time.
One last thing about a Moorings boat. Really really look hard at the electrical system. They are a very basic system to start with and battery banks are very undersized. The Moorings has limited to no qualified electricians working on the boats. If they need to splice a wire they wrap it together and put some electrical tape over it. If they have a problem with a circuit breaker tripping they bypass it. Check every breaker on a Moorings boat to insure it has not be bypassed!!!
Again having said all this if I were in the market for a Cat I would certainly consider buying a Moorings Cat. There are several surveyors in the BVI who are very familiar with the Cane and Roberts product and know where and what to look at on the boats. Some of the boats come out of the 5 year program in much better shape then others. Look at many boats and spend the money for a good surveyor on your top 3 choices.
One last thing. There is a hardtop mod available for the 4700 done in the BVI that is excellent. Not cheap but well worth the money if you are purchasing one. Have it done there before you move the boat to its new home.
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Old 25-07-2009, 22:33   #15
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Back in Feb/March of 2008 we were buyers looking at cats between 36' and 43' in the $200-$300 range. We spent about 45 days living in different hotels every night chasing boats mostly in the Florida area, but as far off as St Martin, Dominican Republic, Georgia and even New York. The boats representing true value were selling quickly. Very quickly! A boat hit the market and only full price offers had a chance to tie up the boat for inspection. In some cases this wasn't even good enough as sellers were holding multiple offers and boats were getting bid up and ultimately selling for more than asking. You know the story...basically, the same situation as the housing market during the boom.

Flash forward to late-July 2009. We just bought another boat a Chris White Atlantic 42 a boat far outside my price range in 2008. A price so good that I jumped on the deal before selling my current boat as I wanted to ensure I wouldn't lose the chance on such a special boat. So, I have first hand knowledge that the market is much softer than about a year ago. But, I also still believe that you must act quickly to get the really good deals. And now as a two boat owner I can tell you based on my observations trying to sell that the market is pretty slow even for really nice boats at what would have been giveaway prices a year and a half ago.
Almost everyone took a hit on net worth over the past few years AND it's harder to get financing now then in the past. I just had a deal blow due to financing and over very few real dollars. Banks are much tougher... as they should have been all along.

Yes, there are still "Real" buyers out there, but now it a buyers market, many boats are for sale due to distressed finances and less discretionary household dollars. It's basic supply and demand. More boats and less buyers = lower prices.
The good news is cats should weather the financial storm better as they represent a segment of the market that is gaining in popularity, especially for those ready to retire and go sailing. Wives tend to like catamarans better than monos as they are easier to live on. Longer term you see lots of guys end up solo on their mono-hull boats as the wives (who rarely were the driving force for a boat in the first place) find living in a cramped dungeon too foreign and want to go home to the grand children. With a cat you can have lots of guest and live up in the daylight. It's more like a floating condo and easier for the wife to assimilate to the lifestyle. This is a big deal for those who don't want to single hand. But, I diverge.

In Summary yes, prices are lower and you have choices in a "buyers market". My advice is to avoid the ex-charter boats in favor of a properly maintained, operated and upgraded privately owned boat. In this market you get more boat for your money and perhaps a privately owned boat at what would have been ex-charter boat prices a year ago.
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