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Old 14-02-2010, 21:13   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie View Post
This wasn't somehting that was won in the courts it is part of the original deed. As I remember it EB could have decided to race in warmer climates but they would have had to been in the Southern Hemisphere.
The Deed of Gift actually says this about the timing:
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The Challenging Club shall give ten months' notice, in writing, naming the days for the proposed races; but no race shall be sailed in the days intervening between November 1st and May 1st if the races are to conducted in the Northern Hemisphere; and no race shall be sailed in the days intervening between May 1st and November 1st if the races are to be conducted in the Southern Hemisphere. Accompanying the ten months' notice of challenge there must be sent the name of the owner and a certificate of the name, rig and following dimensions of the challenging vessel, namely, length on load water-line; beam at load water-line and extreme beam; and draught of water; which dimensions shall not be exceeded; and a custom-house registry of the vessel must also be sent as soon as possible. Center-board or sliding keel vessels shall always be allowed to compete in any race for this Cup, and no restriction nor limitation whatever shall be placed upon the use of such center-board or sliding keel, nor shall the center-board or sliding keel be considered a part of the vessel for any purposes of measurement.
So, clearly, it isn't the DoG that dictated a mid-winter match. Since the two camps couldn't mutually agree on anything, that leaves the court.

Whoever determined that the race would be held this time of year in the Northern Hemisphere is a masochist.

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Old 14-02-2010, 21:43   #92
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SF - Don't Bet the ranch

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Originally Posted by Bash View Post
the good news is that the race is coming to SF Bay. Which means we'll finally see some ACC boats that can handle a bit of wind. And ship traffic. And ferry wakes.
Ah, not so fast, LE was very evasive in his replies to the question(s) asked several different ways. the BMWO press conference is also worth watching. it was immediately following A5 - they were on the stage together for a few seconds.

LE said that he would love SF to be the venue BUT that the local gov't has a lot to say about that because of all the Support that would be necessary ie; docks, team areas, etc - he acknowledged that it is a very crowded waterfront and hard to envision how it could be pulled off.

Right away the Spanish reporter asked about Valencia for AC34 or at least the challenger series - LE was very complimentary of all the facilities, spanish people, etc, etc.

In the end, SF, Newport, San Diego and Valencia were all mentioned. LE said that an independent committee will be formed and it will up to them to study all the options. Lots of people are pushing for Newport.

shh, don't tell Ernesto about SF summer "conditions" - if Valencia in Feb did not work for him - he'll love SF Bay

You can be sure it will not be a "winter" race no matter where it is except SF in July
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Old 14-02-2010, 22:05   #93
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Yeah, I have a hard time seeing an Americas Cup being held in SF bay. As nice as the bay is, these boats were sailing a 39 mi course and there are too many people in marginal control of their boats in the bay (keeping boats off the course would be impossible).

Offshore maybe, winter conditions are really variable there which would make it less likely. I am all for a design with wider functional wind window.

Alighni was much more comfortable in the courtroom than on the race course.
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Old 15-02-2010, 01:08   #94
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Your belief that today was upwind/downwind is probably the source of your confusion, speedo. The first, race, Thursday, was upwind/downwind, but today's race was on a reaching course.

Once they rounded the windward mark, they bore off on two reaching legs. The only time the vessels sailed downwind was after the gybe to get back to the finish line.

I suggest that you watch the race again on ESPN360.com and pay attention to the commentary of Gary Jobson and Randy Smyth. If you're right, and I'm wrong, then Jobson and Smyth are also wrong.

Still want to assert your certitude, speedo?

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I was going to agree with Speedoo, but after seeing that Smyth might have a different take I went and looked at the Smyth/Jobson video to see if I missed something.

Smyth said that they should have unrolled the big sail earlier because now they're above the layline and will have to jibe. If they had unrolled the big sail earlier they could have pointed lower and now wouldn't have to jibe to cross the line. He also commented on how the rolled up smaller sail had been left hoisted which causes extra drag so they must have been unsure if going to the big sail had been the right decision. They took down the small (rolled up) jib to jibe for the finish.

Sorry, I don't think you heard Smyth quite right, it's basically what Speedoo is saying.

Speedoo, you said being below the layline on an offwind leg doesn't matter. I think it does. If the layline is supposed to be where your best VMG down is then sailing beyond means sailing more distance that you shouldn't be able to make up for in increased speed due to the hotter angle. But this doesn't have anything to do with today's race.

John
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Old 15-02-2010, 07:24   #95
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But he had to play.. the winner should choose the place and rules of the race, but it was BMWOracle that choose... Well but like they said, the cup itīs back to america.
This was relatively new territory. Traditionally the sailing grounds were in the defender's waters. That's kind of difficult when your "home waters" are Lake Geneva. Contrary to popular belief (and apparently Alinghi's expectations), BMW/O outperformed Alinghi in light air, so even if this had been held in RAK, it wouldn't have made much difference.

Face it, both sides played nasty, but Alinghi played nastier. In the end, it was won on the water.
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Old 15-02-2010, 07:56   #96
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ellison will bring the monos back in next races .. IMHO. maybe bring it to a place where more than 2 billionaires can afford to participate.
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Old 15-02-2010, 08:03   #97
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ellison will bring the monos back in next races .. IMHO. maybe bring it to a place where more than 2 billionaires can afford to participate.
That's the key. I was disappointed to hear that there's a "challenger of record" already, once again eliminating the Louis Vuitton-style runoff. It seems they want to keep it exclusively a super-rich man's club.

Although I think monos are more exciting to watch match race, I would rather see an open challenge in multis than a closed one with anything.
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Old 15-02-2010, 08:08   #98
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I just read that the combined money spent on the event was close to 1/2 billion (with a B) dollars.
Ellison spent more than $200 million alone, just to serve his ego.
That with thousands dying in Haiti because they have no food or water!
No wonder most of the world thinks that Americans are assholes.
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Old 15-02-2010, 08:14   #99
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I just read that the combined money spent on the event was close to 1/2 billion (with a B) dollars.
Ellison spent more than $200 million alone, just to serve his ego.
That with thousands dying in Haiti because they have no food or water!
No wonder most of the world thinks that Americans are assholes.
so, the must also think the Swiss are assholes.
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Old 15-02-2010, 08:26   #100
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I just read that the combined money spent on the event was close to 1/2 billion (with a B) dollars.
Ellison spent more than $200 million alone, just to serve his ego.
That with thousands dying in Haiti because they have no food or water!
No wonder most of the world thinks that Americans are assholes.
And Dubia spent gazillions on a tower and China spend who knows how much for an Olympics that could have rebuilt the entire island. There are a bunch of candidates for assholes by this criteria.

Jim
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Old 15-02-2010, 08:35   #101
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Old 15-02-2010, 08:35   #102
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John, thanks for summarizing the Smyth comments. I was guessing that he had said the Americans needed the bigger sail for more speed to allow them to point lower and/or to facilitate the gibe and it looks like that's what he was saying.

Regarding being below the layline downwind, I think what I said was it is not the problem that it is upwind. When sailing to a downwind FINISH, you always want to stay below the layline (not necessarily on the layline) so you can sail high enough for optimum VMG. (When sailing to a downwind finish, you have to think of the layline as a band that as wide as the finish line is long, assuming the finish line is square to the wind. If one end of the line is favored, the layline to that end is where you want to be. And in yesterday's race, both boats gibed and finished at the left hand end - facing downwind - so that tells me that end was favored.)

And the above comments really apply specifically for the final approach to the finish, when the layline becomes far more important than it is earlier in the leg. The same is true upwind: the layline becomes crucial in the final approach to the mark, as evidenced by how the race turned around as a result of Kostecki's brilliant call for the American's tack onto port on the layline.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cal40john View Post
I was going to agree with Speedoo, but after seeing that Smyth might have a different take I went and looked at the Smyth/Jobson video to see if I missed something.

Smyth said that they should have unrolled the big sail earlier because now they're above the layline and will have to jibe. If they had unrolled the big sail earlier they could have pointed lower and now wouldn't have to jibe to cross the line. He also commented on how the rolled up smaller sail had been left hoisted which causes extra drag so they must have been unsure if going to the big sail had been the right decision. They took down the small (rolled up) jib to jibe for the finish.

Sorry, I don't think you heard Smyth quite right, it's basically what Speedoo is saying.

Speedoo, you said being below the layline on an offwind leg doesn't matter. I think it does. If the layline is supposed to be where your best VMG down is then sailing beyond means sailing more distance that you shouldn't be able to make up for in increased speed due to the hotter angle. But this doesn't have anything to do with today's race.

John
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Old 15-02-2010, 08:39   #103
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I'm glad I'm not rich- I can spend most of my money on my race boat without people saying I'm a jerk for not spending that money on someone else's country. LE and I probably spend a similar percentage of our money on racing... Just because that percentage equals hundreds of millions of his dollars and only thousands of mine doesn't make him a horrible person.
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Old 15-02-2010, 08:51   #104
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My thanks to Cal40John, as well, for the added insight on that third leg. And my apologies to Speedoo for any misunderstanding.

Jobson and Smyth often transposed Ellison/Bertarelli and Allinghi/Oracle so if you had your eyes off the screen when that happened it could create some confusion. They were actually talking about Allinghi's larger gennaker after turning the mark for home and how they would head toward the beach for the better wind, but would have to change to their smaller jib to get back above the straight line from the mark to the start/finish line to not only lay the line, but to do their 270* penalty turn.

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Old 15-02-2010, 09:22   #105
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Having the race on the SF Bay in typical summer conditions would create more realistic boats and make the race much more dependent on who has the best tactics. This would make for a much more interesting race where there are ever changing velocity and directions with the wind and currents as well as geographical hazards that must be taken into consideration.

We have the Big Boat Series here each year which has large boats that are successfully raced inside the Bay and as far outside the Golden Gate as Point Bonita. It's simply not true if anyone says this could not be done for Americas Cup boats. Its already being done once a year.

Additionally the SF Bay is a natural stadium where spectators would not need to charter or own their boat in order to watch the races in person. All someone would need to do is bring a pair of binoculars, a picnic lunch and find a place on a hillside. This would be very cool for the spectators. They would be within a few miles of the race because the race could not be put offshore here because of the swells and possible breaking waves. Southern California has no natural stadium for watching the race. It would be put offshore a ways where you could only see it on TV or from a boat.

The beauty of the SF Bay is also a real benefit. Really big boats tacking back and forth in high winds near the GG Bridge with the hills in the background is a spectacular sight. I have seen it and you can't get that anywhere but here.
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