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Old 01-06-2016, 08:43   #16
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Re: Would this make you run away?

And congratulations on moving from a deck stepped to a proper keel stepped mast!
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Old 01-06-2016, 09:10   #17
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Re: Would this make you run away?

pull the shims and make sure that there is no side loading that as dimpled the mast at the partners
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Old 01-06-2016, 09:46   #18
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Re: Would this make you run away?

Its a sloppy job but essential for keel stepped masts. There are collars that can replace the shims and keep water out. Presume the mast topsides has a boot around it? As long as nothing is cracked, not a real issue, but does look grossly no class. Of course how many folks are going to peal back the tape and look at it?
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Old 01-06-2016, 13:23   #19
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Re: Would this make you run away?

SoundWave -DO NOT be sorry for you post. Some (at least me) or perhaps many learned a bit more as a result. Thank you for the original question!
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Old 01-06-2016, 13:47   #20
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Re: Would this make you run away?

Quote:
Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED View Post
BTW, the wedges, AKA mast chocking/deck chocking, are what provide the extra support to a keel stepped mast. That's known as "end fixity".
And it's much more support than a step on deck gives to a deck stepped mast. Thus allowing for the use of a lighter weight, more slender tube, with a keel stepped spar.
Never heard that one so I consulted my Skene's. Its doubtful that mast sizing has much to do with how its stepped. Mostly about loading at height and how stayed. What is below deck has little to do with the strength of the mast and most to do with how well supported it is above deck. Plus there is not much twisting to the foot; which is why deck stepped masts have not much lip to their base plate.
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Old 01-06-2016, 15:03   #21
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Re: Would this make you run away?

Stepping the mast, these wedges are used --from the top. Link to pic of properly used wooden ones on a wooden mast.



In your boat's case, they must have forgotten to put in the mast wedges from the top before putting on the boot. Some sailors leave out the wedges -- there's an entire philosophy of having air space around the mast and treating this as not a fixed point but rather having the mast be fixed at keel only. I don't share the philosophy--the wedges allow the mast to bear properly against the mast partners.
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Old 01-06-2016, 15:41   #22
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Re: Would this make you run away?

Different rigs, different tuning.
Uncivilised said it re the tuning - location can be chocked differently to set the prebend, for a race boat, the space is used as part of the adjustment and on a sport boat, you even get a ram to change the stiffness as you play the backstay tension.
As with all pre-owned objects, past owners will do things we like to think of as crazy, or even wrong. They probably had a good reason at the time, even if it was only that the junior hand in the yard did something wrong and then it was made-good.
Key issue, as repeatedly noted here is that there is no basic problem there, but still check for corrosion and wear as well as corrosion at the keel step as this can be a pain on all keel stepped rigs.
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Old 01-06-2016, 17:33   #23
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Re: Would this make you run away?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schooner Chandlery View Post
Stepping the mast, these wedges are used --from the top. Link to pic of properly used wooden ones on a wooden mast.



In your boat's case, they must have forgotten to put in the mast wedges from the top before putting on the boot. Some sailors leave out the wedges -- there's an entire philosophy of having air space around the mast and treating this as not a fixed point but rather having the mast be fixed at keel only. I don't share the philosophy--the wedges allow the mast to bear properly against the mast partners.
Inside wedges allow them to drop inside so you do not lose them. If outside, in a seaway they can come loose and fall overboard. Had that happen in an old Friendship sloop.

You are correct about the philosophy of doing away with them. In olden days with all rope rigging, a wedged mast gave it more stability. Nowadays with wire rigging, not really needed. And may be better given the light construction of most doghouses nowadays.
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Old 02-06-2016, 00:46   #24
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Re: Would this make you run away?

Quote:
Originally Posted by reed1v View Post
Never heard that one so I consulted my Skene's. Its doubtful that mast sizing has much to do with how its stepped. Mostly about loading at height and how stayed. What is below deck has little to do with the strength of the mast and most to do with how well supported it is above deck. Plus there is not much twisting to the foot; which is why deck stepped masts have not much lip to their base plate.
On the contrary, how, or rather, where, a mast is stepped, has a huge influence upon what sized mast section a boat needs. With regards to it's strength & stiffness, AKA section modulus. And a deck stepped mast needs to be 1/3 to 1/2 as much stronger than a keel stepped mast, in the "same" boat.

Brion Toss covers this in his book (from where come the above figures), The Rigger's Apprentice. And it's detailed to some degre as well, on his website's sub-site, SparTalk SparTalk - Powered by vBulletin
I wrote a post not overly long ago, with a direct link to one of those discussions on SparTalk's forums, but at the moment can't find it.

Though also, consider this. The Vast majority of racing boats out there have keel stepped spars, primarily because it allows them to get by with a lighter weight tube. Than if they were to go to a deck stepped spar.
At least on racing boats which don't have canting keels.
Otherwise, the trend would be to go with deck stepped masts, as such rigs & their step's are generally easier & cheaper to build.

Also, on boats of size, there can be substantial twisting forces to be resolved at the butt of the mast. Albeit, some of these forces are resolved via proper staying.
But a lot of torque, I think, gets created on boats with long booms & big mainsails. Plus the forces exerted on their masts, twisting wise, by spinnaker poles (with conventional kites that is). As well as boom vangs.

And not to knock Skene's, I'd think that given it's age, some of the recommendations & calculations formulas are a bit dated. Particularly with regards to more modern materials & designs. Coupled with how much of a push there has been to continually lighten boats since the end of WW II, when recreational sailing, & boat designs for same, really started to become popular.
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Old 02-06-2016, 01:21   #25
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Re: Would this make you run away?

Quote:
Originally Posted by reed1v View Post
Never heard that one so I consulted my Skene's. Its doubtful that mast sizing has much to do with how its stepped. Mostly about loading at height and how stayed. What is below deck has little to do with the strength of the mast and most to do with how well supported it is above deck. Plus there is not much twisting to the foot; which is why deck stepped masts have not much lip to their base plate.
Here's one link to a Thread on SparTalk, where Brion mentions the differing mast strength requiremennts created by being Keel Stepped vs. Deck Stepped, based on End Fixity. Though by no means is it a full explanation.
Convert Keel step mast to Deck step ? - SparTalk
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Old 02-06-2016, 07:30   #26
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Re: Would this make you run away?

may have been a repair while underway and forgotten about underneath that nice cover

this old boat had a keel step wooden mast on purchase with a tar coated leather boot mast to deck outside fitting with pieces of solid rubber arranged through the deck. the rubbers kept falling out / the boot had intermittent leaks /to fix the problem removing the really old boot felt like defacing someones hard work / the pieces of rubber weren't missed at all
masked below the deck sealing around the mast and pumped in seal and flex slow cure (48hrs) / removed the masking and it stayed like that till the wooden mast made way for aluminium with compression post and no through deck problem

you may be onto a good sailing project if that is the only gripe on that whole vessel

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Old 02-06-2016, 07:33   #27
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Re: Would this make you run away?

Excellent answers and information everybody. Much appreciation.

This boat has made it to our final two and we will be putting an offer (With confidence) on one of them this Sunday!

(BTW, Uncivilized, I think "End Fixity" is going to be my new redneck rapper name…)


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Old 02-06-2016, 08:35   #28
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Re: Would this make you run away?

The deck penetration is called the mast partner, and what you need to buy to replace those hinky wedges are called partner blocks. You can buy real nice high density rubber ones and replace those cheesy wedges. Wedges tend to work out on their own power-hence the hose clamp.
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Old 02-06-2016, 08:59   #29
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Re: Would this make you run away?

There used to be a product called Spartite that was poured in place that replaced wedges and did a reasonable job of keeping it water tight, not sure if it's still available.
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Old 02-06-2016, 09:07   #30
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Re: Would this make you run away?

BTW, when surveying a boat with a keel-stepped mast, a careful inspection of the mast base is important. Problems can include corrosion at the bottom of the mast, and of the mast base itself.
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