Where in the grand scheme of budget does diesel vs gas fit?

[nematon785]

Most regulars around here know I am looking for a boat, and I have little practical experience, in addition to being on a budget, and generally a thrifty Scotsman

I have settled on specific makes and models that I want, but now I am in a conundrum because of the diesel engine.

I realize repower is out of line for the type of boats I am looking at, as the cost is likely to approach or exceed the value of the boat, so the the engine it comes with is what I am stuck with.

Naturally I want a brand spanking new yanmar, however I am starting to think true value in my budget range may fall to the classic atomic 4.

At this point I am thinking a recently rebuilt (or new install) atomic with a newer riser and a clean gas tank may be cheaper to maintain and service, and possibly more reliable than a diesel with significant hours.

I also may be able to acquire superior hull, sails, rigging etc... if I settle for an less desirable gas engine, and stay on the same budget.

The boat will be for extended cruising, long term, liveaboard. I dont plan to motorsail a lot (nobody does right?), and my boat design choices are skewed toward light wind and sailing performance rather than battleship strength and lifeboat stylings, so maybe I won't need to motor as much...

I'm guessing oil changes and filters and parts, rebuilds and everything is cheaper on the gas engine right?

Motoring is important, and so is getting the right motor, so I am looking for some feedback from people here who know.

What do you guys think?

[sailpower]

Have you been here?

Moyer Marine Atomic 4 Engine Rebuilding and Parts

[SV Bacchus]

People debate all the pros & cons: gas explodes, diesel doesn't but then again diesel does burn real good, etc. etc.

Gas engines are cheaper and generally parts are cheaper but stay away from auto parts stores. That is where cheap boaters get into trouble and burn their house down. Properly maintain your gas engine, use your blower(s) per recommendations and you will be fine with gas.

There are literally 1000s of inboard gas powered boats in FL and they are all running safely.

All that said I am a diesel guy for long term durability and low end torque.

[GTom]

I think similar considerations can be made as using a gas vs diesel car. IF your diesel fuel is cheaper (as it is in many countries) AND you use the engine a lot, it will make a difference.

For sailing however, things are a bit different: you don't have a gas station every 100 miles in the ocean = fuel economy makes a lot of difference, how far you motor with your tank. I don't know how boat engines fare, but my diesel car has ~20% longer range than its gas powered sibling (with the same tank of course). If that 20% makes that 200 miles you need with a dismasted boat, then you can add your boat to the "profit side" too. I also don't want to mess with highly flammable gas on board.

[AiniA]

I was with you until the words 'extended cruising' came up. If you are careful with gas it is fine but you cannot get past the fuel economy problem. The difference is great enough that it really matters. Hard to imagine having enough gas tankage to make up the difference.

[Pete7]

Think you are over analysing this. Find the boat first and see what the existing engine is like. It could be a complete ball of rust and needs to come out. It could need a bit of TLC or even a rebuild. It could be that you scrap it and then replace with another second hand diesel.

Any of the above options will be 1/4 - 1/3 rd cheaper than replacing it with a new engine.

Here is my local second hand marine diesel engine firm, sorry its in the UK. So if I blow up my Volvo 2003 then I would have no hesitation in going to see what they have in stock. Another 2003 would be the easy option but there are other potential engines around £2000 - £2500 rather than the £7000 for a new engine.

http://www.marineenterprisesltd.co.uk/

[Island Time O25]

When I was looking for my 1st boat I didn't really have much knowledge or the idea of the differences between the two. I did notice that very similar boats (model wise and condition wise) were selling for considerably more if with a diesel vs. gas engine. And I almost put an offer for Ericson 29 in great shape with Atomic 4 gas. But researching the subject further I realized that the difference in value/price reflected all the pluses and minuses of the two types.

Later on, when my first boat's diesel bit the dust I slapped on a transom bracket and tried to use 2 stroke 10HP Evinrude. That didn't work out too well as it was a PITA in all respects. So from then on it is diesel only for me since I am not a good enough sailor to sail without an engine.

[Dockhead]

Atomic 4's are OK, but don't you think it odd that you haven't been able to buy a sailboat with gas engine in decades? That speaks to the very significant advantages of diesel. Number one is safety. Sure, there are thousands of gas powered boats sailing and not blowing up every day, but you have to invest some thought and work into managing gasoline in a boat, and even then, you're taking a risk.

Diesels are really good to have on sailboats , and as the poster above said, the price difference reflects real advantages, and is really worth it, if you can possibly afford it.

Sent from my D6633 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[NewMoon]

Originally Posted by GTom

I think similar considerations can be made as using a gas vs diesel car. IF your diesel fuel is cheaper (as it is in many countries) AND you use the engine a lot, it will make a difference.

For sailing however, things are a bit different: you don't have a gas station every 100 miles in the ocean = fuel economy makes a lot of difference, how far you motor with your tank. I don't know how boat engines fare, but my diesel car has ~20% longer range than its gas powered sibling (with the same tank of course).

In my experience, diesel will get maybe 40% better mileage than gas - running a big pickup truck, or pushing a boat.

So if range on a tank of fuel is important, diesel can offer a very significant advantage - regardless of whether it's a little more or a little less per gallon. Traveling SE Alaska in my 26-foot diesel power cruiser, having a fuel range of 200 nm (diesel) vs 140 (gas) made a huge difference in where we could comfortably go. And diesel was significantly less per gallon - even better.

The more miles you motor, and the longer you keep the boat, the more advantage to diesel. Even if you don't keep it all that long, higher resale value of diesel is goodness.

For a small sailboat diesel I would expect maintenance cost to be relatively trivial. If your diesel is in decent shape, and you take care of it, rebuild is probably not something you have to consider for a very long time. We've put 6,502 hours on ours, and it's nowhere near needing a rebuild.

[GTom]

Wow, 20% was my conservative guess, with our french-german-italian fuel prices (diesel is up to 20% cheaper) economy gets close to 40% better. Of course, a 100HP car engine needs a bit more €€ to service, but it's well covered. 200 vs 140miles is a huge range difference...

[thomm225]

It depends on the size of the boat and what type of sailor your are.

You might be able to get by with an outboard if the boat is under 30' and you sail more than motor as in mainly using the motor to get in and out of your slip etc

Two or three gallons of gas will last me a couple months during the summer and my main weekend "cruises " are about 50 miles or so

[gjordan]

Nemoton, I have been going through the same self debate for a while now. I am on a limited budget and most boats I liked and could afford had A-4s in them. I ended up buying a Tartan 34 with a rust ball A-4 and wanted to install a diesel. The cost was not the biggest concern. The modifications to fit new engine beds, new exhaust, different prop, bigger intake and exhaust seacocks, made it an awful lot of labor (and cost). I have ended up buying another A-4 for $100 that needs a valve job. I will install a spare fuel tank of about 10 gallons, more for safety against contaminated fuel rather than range. I am a long way from being a newby, having done enough ocean crossings to equal a trip around the world (I have no desire for RTW) and my early days were done with no engine and then a diesel with only a 20 gallon fuel tank. It is not hard to cross oceans with little or no fuel. Each end of a passage is were the engine really matters, and for going through passes or narrow channels. Yes, you will spend some days making very little progress in mid ocean, but does that really matter? A few years ago I almost bought an Alberg 35 that had done San Francisco to New Zealand and only gone through 3 tanks of gas. He had a towing generator and only used the engine for passes and harbors. He said he had plenty of electricity. With solar panels the towing generator would not even be needed. Diesel vs gas mostly comes down to how much money you can spend. The extra range of diesel would be nice on long coastal trips, but you can usually find fuel on a coast. I am not say to look for a boat with a gas engine, I am saying that if the best boat you can afford has a gas engine,YOU CAN MAKE IT WORK. Just a long winded 2 cents worth. _____Grant.

[guyrj33]

Gas vs. diesel is a pretty simple trade off for me.
Gas is the right engine for short trips and day sailing.
Diesel it the right engine for long trips and passage making.

[akprb]

I dont plan to motorsail a lot (nobody does right?),

Classic!

Read recent blog post "motoring" for my two cents. (Link below)

As with others when the words "long distance cruising" were mentioned I tipped into the pro diesel column for your situation.

All the best!

[Matsubob]

It is interesting that one major (in my opinion) factor in favor of diesel is that it eliminates one variable for making it RUN. Gasoline engines have spark plugs, plug wires and distributor. Modern technology has greatly improved the distributor area and the newer engines use injectors, but you still have to have a good spark for it to start/run. And a good spark is often harder to generate in a wet environment. Diesels fire from compression in the cylinder. The compression for a diesel is therefore is much higher than a gasoline engine. So for a diesel to fire and start running it needs compression and fuel, and of course air. The diesel will start with a good spin from the starter and then doesn't draw anything from the battery for continuing to run.
Better fuel economy (translating to RANGE) is also a factor, as well as diesel fuel not being as flammable as gasoline. But to me, the main factor in favor is that you don't need a spark or any of the added equipment that is necessary to create and produce the spark at a certain time.
Some of the negatives about diesels are that they are more noisy than gasoline and they smoke more and their oil gets dirty, inky black. And their parts are often more expensive.