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Old 10-04-2014, 17:43   #16
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Re: What Sailboats Heel the Least

Polux speaks the truth. But hey roverhi, buy a moody ds45. No negative AVS. Impossible for the boat to stay inverted. Try that with your full keel of course the ds45 has other issues !

There was a reason older boats needed big bilges, being made of wood , they seeped water. Today the most common thing in the bilges of modern boats is dust !!


AVS is a very misleading metric. Way too static a parameter

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Old 10-04-2014, 17:52   #17
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Re: What Sailboats Heel the Least

don't confuse heel with capsize. Wind heels a boat but not capsize it. Waves are what capsizes boats.

Then there's catamarans. Not just waves but also wind can capsize these
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Old 10-04-2014, 18:03   #18
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Re: What Sailboats Heel the Least

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
... My Contessa seemed to get in the groove and stay there at about 20 degree heel. So once at that heel they seem to settle down and stay solid.... but it's a wet ride. Some Beneteaus have only like 25% ballast! So there's a big difference. There are benefits to both types, (the heavier ballasted boat may be less likley to roll completely over in the "perfect" storm) but most people in today's world prefer the beamier feel.... or the builders are building the wrong boats!
I agree with what you say but I would say that your Contessa with strong wind will tend to sail with more than 20º upwind and also if you like to go fast and have enough wind.



What you say regarding ballast ratio, even if obviously the Contessa has more RM coming from the keel and less from the hull for stability, is not comparable. You cannot compare directly the 25% ratio of a modern Beneteau with the 45% ratio of a Contessa 26 at least if you want to understand the boat stability. For that you need a stability curve.

The Contessa 26 has a draft of 1.22m while Beneteaus (those that have 25% ratio) generally have well over 2.00m. Those Beneteaus also have very efficient torpedo keels and have almost all ballast on the torpedo while the keel of the Contessa is far less efficient in lowering the CG for a given ballast.

What counts in what regards the B/D ratio influence on stability is where it puts the boat CG. You can increase the boat CG increasing the B/D ratio, or lowering the position where the ballast is located, by increasing draft or (and) by using a torpedo keel.

But I agree that the Contessa 26 is one of those old god boats
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Old 10-04-2014, 18:04   #19
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Re: What Sailboats Heel the Least

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Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
don't confuse heel with capsize. Wind heels a boat but not capsize it. Waves are what capsizes boats.



Then there's catamarans. Not just waves but also wind can capsize these

+1 , nasty things worse then full keels

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Old 10-04-2014, 18:26   #20
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Re: What Sailboats Heel the Least

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..
Then there's catamarans. Not just waves but also wind can capsize these
Actually a well designed catamaran with the same weight of the monohull will need a much bigger breaking wave to be capsized, comparing with the monohull. To give you an idea if the boats have about the same weight and size the Max righting moment in a cat would typically 4 or 5 times bigger.

Yes, multihulls can be inverted only with wind and a well design monohull can't.

Vantages and disadvantages on both sides. On a multihull you have to be more careful with your sails and the amount you carry in gusting winds or in bad weather. In very strong winds they sail quite well without any sail.
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Old 10-04-2014, 18:46   #21
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Re: What Sailboats Heel the Least

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
My Contessa seemed to get in the groove and stay there at about 20 degree heel. So once at that heel they seem to settle down and stay solid....
I concur this as fact. It locks in tight, and flys
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Old 10-04-2014, 18:54   #22
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Re: What Sailboats Heel the Least

My impression was the OP enquired about boats that didnt heel so much, not those that were "storm proof". Maybe he wants to sail locally and not panic his wife not necessarily sail the roaring forties!.
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Old 10-04-2014, 18:56   #23
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Re: What Sailboats Heel the Least

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
I agree with what you say but I would say that your Contessa with strong wind will tend to sail with more than 20º upwind and also if you like to go fast and have enough wind.



What you say regarding ballast ratio, even if obviously the Contessa has more RM coming from the keel and less from the hull for stability, is not comparable. You cannot compare directly the 25% ratio of a modern Beneteau with the 45% ratio of a Contessa 26 at least if you want to understand the boat stability. For that you need a stability curve.

The Contessa 26 has a draft of 1.22m while Beneteaus (those that have 25% ratio) generally have well over 2.00m. Those Beneteaus also have very efficient torpedo keels and have almost all ballast on the torpedo while the keel of the Contessa is far less efficient in lowering the CG for a given ballast.

What counts in what regards the B/D ratio influence on stability is where it puts the boat CG. You can increase the boat CG increasing the B/D ratio, or lowering the position where the ballast is located, by increasing draft or (and) by using a torpedo keel.

But I agree that the Contessa 26 is one of those old god boats
We disagree. I claim you can compare that for the question asked by the OP. I've owned a Contessa 26, wettest boat I ever owned... and you'd better have good deck shoes as you'll trying to grip the deck and anything you can with your hands . You dont have to analyze the whole stability curve to understand you're going to be sailing on a deep heel.
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Old 10-04-2014, 19:07   #24
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Re: What Sailboats Heel the Least

So how far off topic are we going to get with this? A scientific conversation about RM and capsize issues seems a little beyond the realm of the OP's question.
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Old 10-04-2014, 19:38   #25
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Re: What Sailboats Heel the Least

Greenhand - yes, it was a 411 not 441, my bad.

There was no sales pitch, just conversation.

I would say if other boats heel 30° to 35° and a Beneteau 411 only heels 20° that would be noticeable.

And even if some of the RM discussion is 'right now' over my head it is something that I will want to understand...I think.

I don't have big bucks for a cat. Even if they don't heel much at all.

Sounds like it is true that a Beneteau does not heel as much as other boats. So are there other boats like this? Or should I focus just on the Beneteau's.









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Old 10-04-2014, 19:45   #26
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Re: What Sailboats Heel the Least

At the dock in light winds.
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Old 10-04-2014, 19:47   #27
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Re: What Sailboats Heel the Least

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
We disagree. I claim you can compare that for the question asked by the OP. I've owned a Contessa 26, wettest boat I ever owned... and you'd better have good deck shoes as you'll trying to grip the deck and anything you can with your hands . You dont have to analyze the whole stability curve to understand you're going to be sailing on a deep heel.
But we agree that in what regards stability you only need to have sailed the boat to know how it sails. I only disagreed regarding B/D ratio to be a good measure of a boat overall stability.
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Old 10-04-2014, 19:48   #28
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Re: What Sailboats Heel the Least

You are being incredibly naive and oversimplifying this. It sounds as though you like the Beneteau for other reasons and want to believe the salesman's BS.

For moderate winds, you should be learning about something called initial stability, which governs the amount of heel under given conditions. It has far more to do with the beam and the underbody shape of the boat than whether it has a bulb on the keel.
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Old 10-04-2014, 19:52   #29
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Re: What Sailboats Heel the Least

Tuff,

It isn't that Beneteau does anything special, it is that modern designs have been moving towards more powerful transoms for a while.

The wider and flatter a boat is the more initial stability it has, and the more RM it generates. Since the pivot point is further outboard, all the weight to windward of that point helps to keep the hull in the water. In addition, as the keel starts to lift, the additional lever arm generates more torque to keep the boat flat. The most extreme examples of this are boats like the Open 60's, TP52's, Mini 6.5's ect. Designed for long downwind runs, these boats can carry huge sails much longer than a more traditional design.

The trade off is that they have a very fast motion in waves. Since there is so much initial stability the boat can forcefully try and right itself, so you get a much more rapid motion compared to a deep rounded hull. Some people find this difficult to deal with, I prefer it since I hate living at significant heel angles more.


What I would suggest is go take a look at the transoms of the Open 60's and compare them to boats you are looking at. The more it looks like the Open's, as a rule, the flatter the boat will sail.
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Old 10-04-2014, 19:52   #30
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Re: What Sailboats Heel the Least

As an ex girlfriend once said when I introduced her to sailing.....

"hey.. let go of this string thing and it doesnt bend over as much!"

Not a lot more to say is there...............
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