The perfect offshore cruiser!?

[welljim]

Unfortunately a lot of posters don't read the entire thread and as a result they keep raising issues that have already been addressed, so we keep going round and round in circles. Anyway, there have been some constructive comments here which helped me narrow down my list to 3 boats. I opened this new thread about them with more relevant title, and would appreciate comments from people who have sailed them.

Many thanks!

[Paul Elliott]

Originally Posted by welljim

we keep going round and round in circles.

And you were expecting anything else???

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by welljim

Unfortunately a lot of posters don't read the entire thread and as a result they keep raising issues that have already been addressed, so we keep going round and round in circles
Many thanks!

Thats sailing for ya... Ask MarkJ..
But seriously.. glad you got something from it.. I quite like this.. its like a VW Beetle[IMG]file:///C:/Users/Boatman61/Desktop/For%20sale,%20sialing%20vessel%20inSuriname_files/main_argoGB_files/Image10.jpg[/IMG].. so ugly I love it

[SaltyMonkey]

is that clockwise or counter-clockwise?

[Randyonr3]

Now someone will have to Inliten me on this subject of " cruisers don't sail to weather" as one of our ventures was to Alaska from san Francisco, and we met dozzens of people that sailed north to Canada and the inland passage . Are we and they not cruisers. As much of it was sailing to weather.
And again, we'll be heading out again, after this refit, for Hawaii, the line islands, and much of the far east.. much of which will be sailing to weather..
And I guess what I'm saying is that with t he boat we own, we have NO issues with sailing to weather, its very comfortable,.and easy to handle.
So to be honest, Im kinda glad the crouds travel with the wind at their back as it.gives us the route less traveled,

[D&D]

at the risk of setting off a storm......we'll just chirp in quietly that in our humble opinion, the perfect offshore cruiser is a cat...and, in that group, the L440 may be near the top of the list for both safe and comfortable offshore cruising and (because there are so many of them!) possibly also being available at prices within the OP's target...

Just sayin...

[welljim]

Would love to get a cat, but can't afford the offshore designs

[David_Old_Jersey]

One thing that "experianced" sailors often forget is........how much they know! and even when actually trying to guide new folks it is hard not to discount the squillion things that mean "you" only need a 5 second glance at a boat to know whether she is in the ballpark for the intended purpose and also have a broad idea of her likely capabilities.......for many that is not rocket science (because it isn't!) - but without that basic knowledge very hard to then go onto making good choices on the specifics, and of course easy to get sidetracked along the way, including on numbers!

GBN's initial questions (to ask of self) are good ones.

Given that the answer to the intended use is likely to be sitting at Anchor / in a Marina 95% plus of the time and with most of the sailing being coastal, the minority multi day passages and with the very occassional ocean passage - if any at all.....then the most important questions on exact boat may well be around lounging space and ease of stowing the dink etc rather than about the best galley to cook a 5 course gourmet meal for 7 whilst rounding Cape Horn during a force 9 .....let alone on actual sailing capabilities (they all perform the same when at anchor ).

In regard to the car analogy, a Toyota will do the same job as a Rolls Royce. A 5 year old Toyota will be both a better and cheaper car than a 40 year old Roller, even if the latter may win on style points (depending on eye of the beholder).........FWIW, a neighbour of mine went on a car rally a few years back from UK to Beijing - the rally was around using only clunkers (£500?). For sure he did a bit of prep to it but that mostly around a good service rather than any mods. I mention that because 40 years ago would have needed at least a 4x4 and likely a whole support train - but the world has moved on , including with boats, and much of what has increased the capabilities of boats / made travelling by boats more accessible is ashore having also developed (telephones, Intrent, UPS and credit cards, jumbo jets! etc etc etc means you don't have to carry everything onboard as you once did - might be handy and cheaper to, but that not the same as "need"........and whilst lots of places not on the beaten track, their is a squillion percent more of the beaten track........which all means choice of boat can be different than in ye olden days - 50's, 60's, 70's(?), 80's? (??!!) ).

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey

One thing that "experianced" sailors often forget is........how much they know! and even when actually trying to guide new folks it is hard not to discount the squillion things that mean "you" only need a 5 second glance at a boat to know whether she is in the ballpark for the intended purpose and also have a broad idea of her likely capabilities.......for many that is not rocket science (because it isn't!) - but without that basic knowledge very hard to then go onto making good choices on the specifics, and of course easy to get sidetracked along the way, including on numbers!

GBN's initial questions (to ask of self) are good ones.

Given that the answer to the intended use is likely to be sitting at Anchor / in a Marina 95% plus of the time and with most of the sailing being coastal, the minority multi day passages and with the very occassional ocean passage - if any at all.....then the most important questions on exact boat may well be around lounging space and ease of stowing the dink etc rather than about the best galley to cook a 5 course gourmet meal for 7 whilst rounding Cape Horn during a force 9 .....let alone on actual sailing capabilities (they all perform the same when at anchor ).

In regard to the car analogy, a Toyota will do the same job as a Rolls Royce. A 5 year old Toyota will be both a better and cheaper car than a 40 year old Roller, even if the latter may win on style points (depending on eye of the beholder).........FWIW, a neighbour of mine went on a car rally a few years back from UK to Beijing - the rally was around using only clunkers (£500?). For sure he did a bit of prep to it but that mostly around a good service rather than any mods. I mention that because 40 years ago would have needed at least a 4x4 and likely a whole support train - but the world has moved on , including with boats, and much of what has increased the capabilities of boats / made travelling by boats more accessible is ashore having also developed (telephones, Intrent, UPS and credit cards, jumbo jets! etc etc etc means you don't have to carry everything onboard as you once did - might be handy and cheaper to, but that not the same as "need"........and whilst lots of places not on the beaten track, their is a squillion percent more of the beaten track........which all means choice of boat can be different than in ye olden days - 50's, 60's, 70's(?), 80's? (??!!) ).

Shock... HORROR...!!!
Griffiths, Vigor and their ilk will be rolling in their graves...

[goboatingnow]

The reason I mentioned the questions is based on experience of talking to people ( as well as sailing myself).

Ive been around , but the most common justifications for boat purchases I get from talking to people who havent done a lot of cruising

(a) Survive an ocean storm ( whatever that means to each person)
(b) Strong and reliable (read heavy and typically said while repairing something)
(c) lots of comments about appendages ( the boats..)
(d) Lots of technical sail combinations for all those conditions

Then after a few years ( in no order)

(a) Need a damm good galley ( you cant believe how important good cooking becomes living aboard)
(b) More space ( in general), specifically more good stowage
(c) simplicity
(d) doesnt break the bank. ( ie esoteric gear or hard to find stuff).
(e) Good anchor
(f) Good berths at anchor and in the marina.

Notice the major differences, Why , because people work out that reliability, appendanges , etc can be accommodated and accounted for and that death does not stalk their every cruising moment. But the "little" things like a galley that works and you dont hate become huge.

A boat with fabulous narrow confining sea berths, great for the 2x 4 weeks passages a year , but a horror for the 98% of the time when you are stopped.

Dont buy a boat for conditions you may never see or buy one for the 10% of experiences , buy one for the 90% experiences. Then avoid the 10% !!

Dave

[carstenb]

David makes some good points, as do many others. Every time there is a thread about "blue water boats" "Cruisers" etc. Everyone gets all worked up about will the boat make it through the "perfect storm" or at least a hurricane.

With todays weather forecasting, a prudent sailor will not end up on the ocean in a hurricane. Or let's say it is highly unlikely. So perhaps that should not be a top priority concern

I making my boat, a production boat, ready for an RTW. I do not plan to sail through hurricanes. The boat is more than strong enough to survive one, and I suspect it will survive more than the crew, so That really doesn't worry me. I'm more worried about how it sails in "normal" weather. Is it comfortable? Is it easy to handle for a couple? etc.etc.

Many of the posters on this forum who are asking about cruising boats, get answers like they are going RTW. Florida to Bermuda is not a Bluewater boat. Cruising the Caribbean is not a blue water boat. Cruising the MED is not a bluewater boat.

A Bluewater boat crosses oceans. The rest are coastal or off-shore cruisers.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

The reason I mentioned the questions is based on experience of talking to people ( as well as sailing myself).

Ive been around , but the most common justifications for boat purchases I get from talking to people who havent done a lot of cruising

(a) Survive an ocean storm ( whatever that means to each person)
(b) Strong and reliable (read heavy and typically said while repairing something)
(c) lots of comments about appendages ( the boats..)
(d) Lots of technical sail combinations for all those conditions

Then after a few years ( in no order)

(a) Need a damm good galley ( you cant believe how important good cooking becomes living aboard)
(b) More space ( in general), specifically more good stowage
(c) simplicity
(d) doesnt break the bank. ( ie esoteric gear or hard to find stuff).
(e) Good anchor
(f) Good berths at anchor and in the marina.

Notice the major differences, Why , because people work out that reliability, appendanges , etc can be accommodated and accounted for and that death does not stalk their every cruising moment. But the "little" things like a galley that works and you dont hate become huge.

A boat with fabulous narrow confining sea berths, great for the 2x 4 weeks passages a year , but a horror for the 98% of the time when you are stopped.

Dont buy a boat for conditions you may never see or buy one for the 10% of experiences , buy one for the 90% experiences. Then avoid the 10% !!

Dave

Damn.... wish I could be eloquent...

[goboatingnow]

A Bluewater boat crosses oceans. The rest are coastal or off-shore cruisers.

I would agree with your post upto this point.

The vast majority of cruisers do very few ocean crossings in their "lifetimes", many spend long periods in typical cruising areas, followed by a "jump" to another cruising terrority.

ANy good boat can be rigged to handle a tradewind ocean crossing with a few tweaks and twiddles, Hence virtually anything sailed prudently and prepared carefully is a "blue water boat". Its has nothing to do with keels and rudders etc. ( I know you didnt mention these).

The term "blue water" boat has no meaning its a marketing term in my view. A Beneteau 393 is a med boat,as is a 393 crossing the Atlantic a "bluewater" one.


Dave

[TeddyDiver]

Thou if someone asks about blue water boats so what's so difficult to answer simply to the question and stop telling he ends up sitting on the pier most of the time ? In that case the best boat is a dinghy and you get a hotel room..

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

I would agree with your post upto this point.

The vast majority of cruisers do very few ocean crossings in their "lifetimes", many spend long periods in typical cruising areas, followed by a "jump" to another cruising terrority.

ANy good boat can be rigged to handle a tradewind ocean crossing with a few tweaks and twiddles, Hence virtually anything sailed prudently and prepared carefully is a "blue water boat". Its has nothing to do with keels and rudders etc. ( I know you didnt mention these).

The term "blue water" boat has no meaning its a marketing term in my view. A Beneteau 393 is a med boat,as is a 393 crossing the Atlantic a "bluewater" one.


Dave

Dave, I think we agree. The term "blue water" gets tossed about all the time. Mostly it has no meaning in the context it is being said. Unless the owner is a real bluewater cruiser (beth & evans, the parsley and people of their ilk) then a true "blue water" cruiser is not needed. Which why I fail to understand the many who constantly argue against "production boats" as being too light. Most of these boats (some exceptions) will sail right around the world without any problems whatsoever.