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Old 06-06-2010, 23:25   #91
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1984 Beneteau Beneteau first 42 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

Be insane do it!
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Old 06-06-2010, 23:26   #92
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Doodles! I LOVE that boat. Its on my LOVE LIST. Have you been on it??

That Vancouver got me interested in the design to start!
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Old 06-06-2010, 23:31   #93
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Doodles! I LOVE that boat. Its on my LOVE LIST. Have you been on it??
Been all over the outside but never inside. It's at the marina next to mine. I actually had a contract on another one in Annapolis but ended up walking away from it. Tried hard to get inside this one to compare it to the one in Annapolis but the owner could never find time to show it to us and the broker (internet guy) was no help. Looked o.k. outside. I like a lot about the Vancouvers especially the pullman berth that some have (not this one but the one in Annapolis had it).
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Old 07-06-2010, 09:05   #94
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Good Lord Doodles,

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I am trying to get a Beneteau on the list and you keep coming up with SaltyMonkey one off and steel boat porn. No fair!

SM,
The 2010 Hunter 31 we just delivered to a big lake in Idaho had a wheel at the helm, I imagine you could re-fit with a tiller though.

Insanity is a part of valor.

Good Day,
Greg
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Old 07-06-2010, 09:32   #95
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By the way, pre-1990 Bendytoys were produced in a completely different manner. Beneteau did not ramp up mass production until the early '90's. Benes from this era are hand-made boats which do not, by and large, have those mass-produced qualities you dislike.

That is a lovely, German Frers classic design. The only problem with it is that it is fast as sh*t; that will clash with your idea of sailing
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Old 07-06-2010, 10:52   #96
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By the way, pre-1990 Bendytoys were produced in a completely different manner. Beneteau did not ramp up mass production until the early '90's. Benes from this era are hand-made boats which do not, by and large, have those mass-produced qualities you dislike.

That is a lovely, German Frers classic design. The only problem with it is that it is fast as sh*t; that will clash with your idea of sailing
Except that he probably can't afford all of the rail meat it takes to sail the boat.
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Old 07-06-2010, 11:08   #97
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Except that he probably can't afford all of the rail meat it takes to sail the boat.
The boat was designed for "Open Ocean Racing" hence, no rail meat needed to Haul ass,
As many have stated on this forum that own a FIRST42, singlehanding is the norm, all lines are lead aft from the factory and there's little need to leave the cockpit..
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Old 07-06-2010, 11:14   #98
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That 42 is also a rare bread as it has a third berth.. Most have one quarter and a pullman forward..
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Old 07-06-2010, 13:19   #99
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I have no problem going fast as hell, but just remember what those design concerns of mine are there for. I love speed. But we're talking about sailing blue water and solo and some rough areas, therefore we're not talking about some abstract "macho-testosterone" reasoning for why we are looking for certain abstract facts from the boat candidates. Quite the opposite. We are looking at certain characteristics because of our "limitations" in sailing abilities and unfortunately that is most of the time when you are alone no matter what you read about.

Yes, in a perfect world I would love a Beneteau or Hunter could sail at all points of sail easily, could make to windward through high seas, could be comfortable heaving to or to sea anchor, and could run downwind at 3x the ingrid, could take a knockdown, could be strong enough to not worry about rudders and fins and bolts - all by myself. But that's not the case.

In a crew situation, we're not just talking rail meat. We're talking someone feeding you seasick pills and taking your watch; we're talking paired-crew taking 15 minute steering sessions with one yelling "wave" and the other streering; we're talking crew shifts downwind; we're talking on-off sleep patterns. We're talking "live" compensation which isn't there when you are alone, and why you need proven KISS things to be there for you so when your left-brain is mush things will work in your favour just by the boat you are in and how you prepared it and how she will naturally react to some bad situations without you.

The FIRST 42 looks nice on the surface. Unfortunately, the specs I used are for the 42. I can't find the FIRST 42. She looks like an older Swan with those decks (oh right wooden deck issues). I like the boat on the surface, especially the flat decks, but generally am distrustful when I know there is a record from other sailors on other designs.

But doesn't mean I don't consider things. For example, by the numbers the hunter 31 is seaworthy and how many 2010 boats can you get on the market for that price? So you ask yourself if maybe you can augment something like that and live with it. Questions do cross your mind. Spade rudders. Fins. Is it reasonable? Not sure. But asking the questions are interesting.
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Old 07-06-2010, 13:32   #100
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The boat was designed for "Open Ocean Racing" hence, no rail meat needed to Haul ass,
As many have stated on this forum that own a FIRST42, singlehanding is the norm, all lines are lead aft from the factory and there's little need to leave the cockpit..
I wouldn't singlehand that boat. I wouldn't singlehand a Swan of that vintage either. Those boats need crew. They are too skittish to steer, lots of sail area for the displacement-- that's why they go fast.

I will agree, though, that Beneteau made better boats 25 years ago than they do now.
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Old 07-06-2010, 14:11   #101
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Curmudge - yeah I agree. 42 ' alone is too much boat for me. I'm pushing it as it is with those 39' options.
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Old 08-06-2010, 15:32   #102
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Cruising Boat Stats

I added a worksheet tab to the cruising stats spreadsheet to compare boats.
Most of the ones discuss are listed in it.
how do you calculate/evaluate for "Easy to Singlehand" besides All lines led to cockpit Y/N...

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Old 08-06-2010, 15:55   #103
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One of the problems with using statistics or spreadsheets is that the measurements that are generally found are rather "old" and may not be a good indicator of the quality of the design of modern boats. Some of the newer statistics that can be useful are not easy to attain because the measurements that feed them are not readily available online - e.g. GZ, AVS, Down-flooding angle etc. This is especially true with calculating better stability references such as STYX.

Then there are somewhat useful industry standards - Lloyds, CE etc. They are light, for sure as an indicator, but not easy to find on all boats.

Another idea to pursue is to look at listing of people that have used them offshore.

For example, here are some from the ARC

Beneteau Oceanis 411 x2
Beneteau First 40.7
Beneteau Oceanis 423 x3
Beneteau First 40.7D
Beneteau First 42S7
Beneteau First 38
Beneteau Coeanis 42CC
Hall-Rossy 39
HR 38
HR 372
HR 36 x2
Moody 33 MK1 336
Moody 37
Moody S38
Jeanneau Selection 37
Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 39i
Bavaria 36, 38
Comfort 32'
Carter 33
Dufour 38 Classic
Gibsea 37

and from the Pacific Puddle

Beneteau 35
Beneteau 36s7
Island Packet 37, 370

There is also a circumnavigator listing on Latitiude

Latitude 38 - West Coast Circumnavigators' List

and probably some other places online.

As for single handling, that's a rigging situation that can be modified easily. However, I tend to look at sail area, and length and stability. Can I move about easily on it and be able to handle that much area. The classical answer is 32-36 feet. But looking at larger vessels, perhaps I can handle more...and I am a small frame. I do look for a cockput traveler rather than something on the coach top. Thats just a wish list item, and if i like the boat design I might just change my mind.
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Old 08-06-2010, 16:42   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey View Post
One of the problems with using statistics or spreadsheets is that the measurements that are generally found are rather "old" and may not be a good indicator of the quality of the design of modern boats. Some of the newer statistics that can be useful are not easy to attain because the measurements that feed them are not readily available online - e.g. GZ, AVS, Down-flooding angle etc. This is especially true with calculating better stability references such as STYX.
Then there are somewhat useful industry standards - Lloyds, CE etc. They are light, for sure as an indicator, but not easy to find on all boats.


Lloyds 100A... the highest build quality available....
CE.. a ploy inspired by the EU to stem the flow of cheap second hand imports from the US etc spoiling the EU boat market... they'll charge you 12k to walk round your boat putting stickers like 'gas locker'... 'close valve after use' etc... if you judge a boat by CE... buy a McGregor 26...thats got a CE....lmao...
Statistics.... DAMN Statistics......

PS... The voyage begins tomorrow
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Old 08-06-2010, 16:59   #105
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Dockhead


The FIRST 42 looks nice on the surface. Unfortunately, the specs I used are for the 42. I can't find the FIRST 42. She looks like an older Swan with those decks (oh right wooden deck issues). I like the boat on the surface, especially the flat decks, but generally am distrustful when I know there is a record from other sailors on other designs.
She looks like an older Swan because that's basically what she is. The First 42 is a German Frers design, the author of so many of the great Swans of that era. I spent a couple of weeks on a Frers designed Swan 90 last year. That was some sh*t.

That First 42 is a very, very nice boat indeed, although personally I would prefer something a little newer.

I think that a boat which SAILS, that is, which can keep moving under all kinds of conditions, is not necessarily more stressful or risky than a classic long-keeled tub (like my old boat). Pilots say speed = life. I think it's the same thing sailing. If you've got way on, and steerage, you can manage. You can reef down to whatever sail area you are comfortable with. Losing steerage and not having the ability to make way in rough conditions, because your boat is a tub, is much scarier, in my opinion, and much more dangerous.

I think it is a false design value, to design a boat which bobs around with a pleasant motion, but out of control, in rough conditions. I would much rather be going somewhere, and I think it is much safer.
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