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Old 28-04-2015, 11:48   #121
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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I have zero blue water experience, but I remember someone else on these forums once said that if you took everyone's blue water advice and put it together, you would end up in a custom aluminum yacht with no windows at all, and few amenities, if any. Who is going to enjoy spending time at sea in that?
I will raise my hand . Add a good sound system and large galley and that sounds perfect to me .

SWL
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Old 28-04-2015, 12:00   #122
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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I have zero blue water experience, but I remember someone else on these forums once said that if you took everyone's blue water advice and put it together, you would end up in a custom aluminum yacht with no windows at all, and few amenities, if any.
You know my readings describe things that really matter, not just to blue water but any boat. It describes what makes a safe and efficient porthole. It describes what makes a safe and efficient hatch. What to do when using it. What to do when the weather gets nasty.

It describes ventilation. With drawings to demonstrate how a good design manages to get the air in but drain the incoming water back out again. What the seats in the cockpit should look like. Actual sizes based on actual human anatomy averages.

What dodgers and biminis are and how they do it. What to look for to keep air moving and water out.

Little stuff like that. An entire book about what is good and what is not on "offshore yachts".

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Old 28-04-2015, 12:14   #123
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Not sure why you think I feel that Oysters are lacking in handholds, after I specified that they are certainly among the builders who pay careful attention to such details... I'm simply making the point that the scale of the interiors on many boats of that size and style of interior configuration today, there can be some open spaces to be negotiated, and handholds may not always be within easy reach of smaller individuals, children and more petite women, in particular... Again, not a criticism of the boat, but rather a simple observation about some of the larger deck salons I've been aboard, and factors that may come into play when sailing offshore...
This was the point I was responding to earlier, or as I took your meaning when you posted the photo of the saloon that has wide open spaces to walk across. (bolded above quote)
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Old 28-04-2015, 12:17   #124
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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I will raise my hand . Add a good sound system and large galley and that sounds perfect to me .

SWL
Would you prefer classic or modern?
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Old 28-04-2015, 12:23   #125
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Would you prefer classic or modern?
I am a modern lass with classic tendencies .

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Old 28-04-2015, 12:55   #126
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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I am a modern lass with classic tendencies .

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Kinda like Oyster meets Chanel then... Ok, got it.
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Old 28-04-2015, 12:56   #127
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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ROTFL. They'll know what they WANT anyway. Not necessarily so much "what they need". When they disappear, never to be heard from again it will become obvious that they didn't really know what they needed.
The thing is that for 99% of boaters they have at least what they need because boats normally don't fail before the people on them do. The other 1% is a mix the very few people in need of a stronger boat and those that only needed something more due to their own poor decisions.
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Old 28-04-2015, 13:08   #128
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Dear Paulanthony,

This is a complex topic. Today, most boats are designed towards a particular end. fast racing in a particular location; chartering in coastal waters etc...... each suited for its purpose. They are also built to a cost and as a consequence are scrimped on in structure and fitted with inferior equipment largely by builders and designers who are generally not avid seamen.

There are two web sites: morganscloud.com & Setsail.com that provide a most balanced answer to your question. In the case of the former site they specify an "Adventure 40"....a 40 page book. (free). In the latter site Tom Dashew designed and sailed yachts. Today, Tom is a great deal older and now designs and builds trans-oceanic FSB's (fast patrol boats) fitted out as private yachts 65' being the smallest but what is of interest is that both answers your question in coming to a "Blue water" yacht conclusion and building THE design.

I wish you all the best,

Erich
Howdy Erich.

I agree with much of what you wrote above and liked your comments.

What follows is written in a friendly tone of voice, and with the simple goal to identify a few things you mentioned that are just a little off (mistaken).

The Setsail.com site is about the boats designed by "Steve" Dashew, not "Tom" Dashew.

SetSail ยป About Us

The Dashew line of motor yachts is called "FPB" ("Fast Power Boat"), not FSB. But as I recall it was based on the historic "Fast Patrol Boat," a naval design from early 20th century.

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AFAIK (as far as I know) the Adventure 40 is still just a design (not yet built) concept and discussion (and preliminary plans). I have not read that blog in months so I could be wrong (it could be built by now), but as I recall they were still discussing (and limiting) the design.

Like others, I will be curious to see if one gets built and what the results are after sea trials and sea time.
_______________

The Dashew line has quickly built a very impressive record for long passages, and the FPB line or boat concept is impressive (to me). The folks buying them have been going places!
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Old 28-04-2015, 13:15   #129
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

We can all agree that boats have changed over the years, and for better or worse, thats debatable.
But I know I've sailed a good number of boats over the years and we have much more comfort in the newer style boats than we have ever in older style.
Now you might concider ours as an older style as its over 30 years old and then again people have said it dosent count anyway as its a rare breed but just to point something about the newer designs..
A couple days ago I snapped this photo, while the wife is in the gally, biskets in the oven and soup on the stove.. and even though we have hand holds, we rarly use them..
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Old 28-04-2015, 13:22   #130
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

Seriously - there IS an evaluation system for offshore yachts. It actually exists, but no one seems to be aware of it. Until yesterday I had never heard of it, so please excuse any errors below as I'm certainly no expert.

For all yachts sold in Europe (possibly applies to North America also) the manufacturer is required to meet ISO 12217 (stability) and ISO 12215 (structural strength); Category A is Offshore. But not only must they meet those standards, they must also publish certain critical stability information -
. AVS (Angle of Vanishing Stability) must exceed 130 degrees for offshore (less an allowance for heavier displacement, that brings most minima down to around 110 degrees).
. STIX (STability IndeX), a number from 0 to 100 that takes account of many different features - displacement, beam, downflooding angle, GZ curve, etc, etc, etc, must exceed 35 for offshore.

And those numbers are available on line for simple comparison of all offshore monohulls manufactured since 2010 (and many more besides). For example, the renowned Vancouver series of Canadian yachts have AVS numbers up around 170!!!!! And they're certainly not submarines!

Thanks Paul for starting this thread - I for one find these numbers incredibly useful in evaluating different yacht designs. I'm just astonished they are not more widely publicized - but then why would you publish the fact that your yacht will turn turtle if the mast tip ever touches the water?
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Old 28-04-2015, 13:35   #131
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

Blue includes running down the face of a wave at 16 kts. Pilot may occasionally try to attempt diverging around bigger waves, or loose grip, or loose a steering cable or...at any point in this mode of sailing.

Using the formulas for an emergency rudder at :

https://www.pacificcup.org/kb/emerge...ign-guidelines

...you can get to 20,000 lbs side force on the rudder blade with a 10 sq foot submerged section of rudder, not stalled, with a momentary lift coef of 3.0 (which also includes a mechanical safety factor), on a 50 foot boat. Side torque can reach over 50,000 lbs, depending on distance from center of lift point to lower bearing.

That's like hanging a half sized boat off your boat's rudder, sideways.

The site has a large amount of good reference material to read through, such as:

https://pacificcup.org/sites/default...ity_r3_JKA.pdf
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Old 28-04-2015, 13:37   #132
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Originally Posted by K_V_B View Post

One of the things I noticed already quite early is that a lot of cultural biases creep in any discussion on what a proper long distance cruiser is. And you get made aware of your own biases as well.

SNIP

So observing that the French have a completely different idea about what a proper blue water yacht is compared to for example the Dutch, or the Americans I can only conclude that most of the opinion is subjective.

The other thing about me is that I have a background in engineering. As an engineer I know that for example "stronger" is not always better. If you make something stronger than needed you are just being wasteful.

I'm close to buying a boat right now. I have the means, and soon will have the time. But it won't be a Tayana 37, as I wouldn't be caught dead in one. Boy is that boat ugly. But I'm not considering anything built before 2000 anyway. At the moment my heart wants an RM 1060 or 1070, but my brain says I should get a Jeanneau 379.

And yes, that's a large part my biases speaking...
Hi KVB.

I found your comments interesting in this thread. I also enjoy seeing a "multi-cultural" view on issues like this one.

You mentioned you see/read/observe the differences in how the different sailing cultures see the issue of what is suitable for Blue Water Boats.

I am always curious to learn about that. If you care to share here on the forum or in a PM, I would like to know more of what you have seen/read in he different language journals etc. I know you might have covered this before in the "Production Boats Fit for Blue Water?" thread. IF you have kept your posts from that, perhaps you could just PM me a copy of the text.

As I look at boats in Europe (via online listing sites) I readily see a difference in the Dutch built boats, and notice the French boats that Polux often posts. These look and "feel" different from the typical USA Coastal Cruiser that is common in the American waters/experience.

These regional differences (even apparent in the Pacific Northwest boats) are interesting to me.
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Old 28-04-2015, 13:41   #133
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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Originally Posted by FastCruiser View Post
We can all agree that boats have changed over the years, and for better or worse, thats debatable.
But I know I've sailed a good number of boats over the years and we have much more comfort in the newer style boats than we have ever in older style.
Now you might concider ours as an older style as its over 30 years old and then again people have said it dosent count anyway as its a rare breed but just to point something about the newer designs..
A couple days ago I snapped this photo, while the wife is in the gally, biskets in the oven and soup on the stove.. and even though we have hand holds, we rarly use them..
I sincerely appreciate your comment. Why not post the type and size or a photo of the boat (the rare breed) you sail too?
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Old 28-04-2015, 13:50   #134
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

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When did I ever say "it is just the boat that matters"? This comes up over and over and over and over and over and over. And over and over.

Repeat the "and over" about a thousand more times.

THEN PLEASE knock it off. I never said it was "just the boat that matters".

Next, a huge part of this thread has been discussing how "production boats" and "charter boats" tend to be aimed at the marina liveaboard crowd. Big, coimfortable, pretty. So to equate "charter" with "blue water" seems questionable to me. To tell me that a bunch of those boats sank doesn't surprise me at all.

So listen up everyone reading this thread. Neither I nor anyone else EVER SAID IT IS JUST THE BOAT THAT MATTERS.

Please, if you have nothing more to add to the thread than "The skipper is all that matters" please move on. What you are about to say has already been said about a bajillion times, and flat out isn't true.

And if I sound annoyed... well I have had to read through about a bajillion "the skipper matters" posts to a thread about what makes a blue water boat, and have read about 5 (TOTAL) posts actually discussing the boat itself. Your "it's the skipper" opinion has been WELL COVERED already.
Thank you ever so much for your kind words.

'Charter' in the TdF context means skippered ( and often crewed ) charter.... you know... the big blue water expedition boats that operate from Pto Williams down to the Peninsula..

I'm surprised you didn't know that.
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Old 28-04-2015, 13:55   #135
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Re: The criteria of "blue"

Oh.. and by the way..I didn't say "The skipper is all that matters" I said 'Its not just the boat that matters'.... quite a different thing......in fact totally different.
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