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Old 01-12-2010, 20:19   #1
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Stayless Storm Jib ?

Rather than put in a baby stay for a hank-on storm jib (on a Cape Dory 27), I've been thinking of using a non-stretch bolt rope (probably Vectran) on the luff that I can just attach to a pad eye on the bottom, and a non-stretch halyard at the top.

It seemed like a simple idea. I use the jib winch to get the luff as tight as I can. The sail is small, so it may stay taut enough for the purpose. Then I read the following from Michael on this forum:

". . .for hoisting from the pointy end when the wind picks up the sail should be attached to something or something ugly could happen."

It made me picture the storm jib doing some frightful whipping around until (hopefully) I got it hoisted.

Has anybody ever seen a no-stay rig like this? Has anybody used a variety of storm jib set-ups in bad weather?
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Old 01-12-2010, 20:29   #2
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Seconded. I've got a Bristol 32, and I have a genoa on a roller furler, and have wondered the same thing. I good buy the wrap-around storm sail, but I too am looking for a more elegant solution. Anybody?
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Old 01-12-2010, 21:02   #3
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AKA "flying jib". A light air set up, not for storm jib. It would be ridiculously dangerous.
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Old 01-12-2010, 21:32   #4
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Please explain. Just looking for a tough pocket sail for gail conditions. What is the danger?
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Old 01-12-2010, 21:43   #5
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Its gonna be flapping and flailing all over the place and could take out an eye or worse... if you want a storm set up use a single line reefing system instead and leave it up permanently... simple and easy and costs about $100 to set up.. no wires needed just somewhere to fasten the roller on deck and the swivel on the mast...
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Old 01-12-2010, 21:51   #6
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One might build a running stay that includes a halyard block at the upper end. The entire rig would be hoisted up with the mast halyard, hardened with the runners or backstay, followed by the storm sail being hoisted up the running stay on hanks.

BTW, a furled genoa is a huge disadvantage in a blow that requires a storm jib. It should be dropped and stowed if possible...hopefully in a lull.
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Old 01-12-2010, 21:52   #7
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Fancor (I think) do a furling system for storm sails

They use them on the open 60s and the big Trimirans.

Hoist on a halyard, get the tension on, then unfurl from a winch.

On the big boats it's safer than trying to get a storm sail on hanks hoisted.

Good system - it's not cheap though
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Old 01-12-2010, 22:01   #8
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I just finished a project very closely related. I spliced eyes in the ends of a length of Amsteel (very little stretch) attached a tack hook to one end and wa-lah a second for-stay. I installed a really beefy pad eye in the foredeck just behind the windless with a backing plate the size of a small dinner plate. Using the spin halyard to hoist this second forestay I can then raise the storm-jib/ stay-sail without it being set flying. The storm jib has a wire luff anyway so it can be raised very tight. Also it is masthead so I don't need running back stays. I flew it last Tuesday as a stay-sail for the first time and it worked great.
I agree that setting a storm sail flying is probably not a safe idea. Whipping around and all.
We also experimented with using the topping lift as a barber hauler for the second head-stay and halyard in order to adjust the angle in relation to the original head-stay. Still in experimental stages!
Good luck
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Old 01-12-2010, 22:05   #9
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Originally Posted by bewitched View Post
Fancor (I think) do a furling system for storm sail
I have a Harken Code Zero furler which would work fine with a storm sail appropriately modified with a double luff line. Furler is expensive.
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Old 01-12-2010, 22:18   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daddle View Post
I have a Harken Code Zero furler which would work fine with a storm sail appropriately modified with a double luff line. Furler is expensive.
No it is not.... $100 or there abouts.....
Barton Single Line Furling Gear


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Old 01-12-2010, 22:25   #11
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No it is not.... $100 or there abouts.....
Barton Single Line Furling Gear
If that toy was 10x stronger and it might just work. But true, a Storm jib may not need the endless-furling line of the Code Zero furler.
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Old 01-12-2010, 22:38   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daddle View Post
If that toy was 10x stronger and it might just work. But true, a Storm jib may not need the endless-furling line of the Code Zero furler.
Daddle.... That TOY stood up to 50kt+ winds on the Genoa of a 22ftr in the Biscay for over 1 weeks steady storm.... it works just fine... but what do I know...
Apart from the fact I did not have a storm jib so was under 2/3rd furled genny and full reefed main... go figure.
PS; Its made in the UK not China
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Old 01-12-2010, 23:04   #13
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but what do I know...
...maybe you don't know the manufacturer's stated breaking load is a tiny 1108kg?
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Old 01-12-2010, 23:08   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daddle View Post
...maybe you don't know the manufacturer's stated breaking load is a tiny 1108kg?
Ahhh... thats around about one ton.... actually a tad over... good enough for my 22ftr... what would you want 5 tons plus... go on.. live dangerously.. its great fun
and yes I did know...
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Old 01-12-2010, 23:36   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Surrymark View Post
Rather than put in a baby stay for a hank-on storm jib (on a Cape Dory 27), I've been thinking of using a non-stretch bolt rope (probably Vectran) on the luff that I can just attach to a pad eye on the bottom, and a non-stretch halyard at the top.

It seemed like a simple idea. I use the jib winch to get the luff as tight as I can. The sail is small, so it may stay taut enough for the purpose. Then I read the following from Michael on this forum:

". . .for hoisting from the pointy end when the wind picks up the sail should be attached to something or something ugly could happen."

It made me picture the storm jib doing some frightful whipping around until (hopefully) I got it hoisted.

Has anybody ever seen a no-stay rig like this? Has anybody used a variety of storm jib set-ups in bad weather?
This is regularly done on the TP 52 crowd; there are a couple of details that are critical to get correct, and while you're close you're not quite on target. I've built the same mechanism into my mast, it works well.

The basic mechanism is soft stay that can be hoisted and tensioned, the storm jib is hanked on to the soft way with soft hanks, and a halyard hoists the storm jib. Attach jib sheets and trim like any other sail.

To do:

Set up a padeye on deck that is as strong as you're existing headstay, this is the tack for the storm jib and stay. Loads imparted by a stormsail in storm conditions will be equivalent to what the headstay can carry. To reduce compression loads on the mast, place the padeye as far forward as you can. If you want to bring the storm jib's center of effort aft to offset a deeply-reefed main's center of effort moving forward, bring the padeye aft.

Backup at the padeye to the hull such that you don't tear the padeye out of the deck. A matching padeye bolted to the underside of the deck provides a match to the bolt pattern and provides a ring to attach to belowdecks. Run a tie-rod from the belowdeck padeye to the hull. The tie-rod could be 1x19, swages, and a turnbuckle, vectran lashing, work out what is best for you.

The stay is vectran singlebraid, it's breaking load is equal to or greater than the breaking load of the headstay. It goes up on a 2:1 halyard on the mast - this is the tough part, you really want a 2:1 halyard of very low stretch material as a 1:1 halyard most likely won't get you the tension you need for a stay. One way to do this is to place a padeye on the mast above a topping lift and use a riding block on the topping lift. The block must have a breaking load greater than the vectran stay.

You will also require a halyard for the storm jib that is set on the mast below stay-tensioning halyard - this again calls for some thought as to how best configure the spar to do this. In my case, I had a second pole lift installed a foot below the first pole lift, with the first pole lift set up as a 2:1 lift.

The soft hanks on the storm jib itself can be spectra single-braid (slippery and strong, easy to make using a diamond knot), and some boats go with a spectra strop/webbing hank. In either case, the idea is that the hank should be slippery for riding up and down the vectran stay while at the same time not being made of a material that will cut through the vetran stay. Do not use bronze hanks.

The set up, when finished, works like this: the vectran stay lives in the sailbag with the storm jib, the storm jib is already hanked onto the stay. The bottom of the stay is attached to a captive-pin D-shackle that attaches to the deck padeye (some boats have a second padeye set inches aft of the stay padeye to accept the storm jib tack). The storm jib has it's own tack pennant and D-shackle that also attaches to the deck padeye. Keep both D-shackles tied to the mouth of the sailbag so you don't have to go hunting for them in the bag. Tie off the upper end of the vectran stay to the bag mouth so you can also find it.

To rig, bring the sailbag on deck, and attach both D-shackles to the padeye. Attach the vectran stay to the 2:1 stay-tensioning halyard - the sail is still in the bag, the bag has not been opened. Hoist the vectran stay. If the bag is built correctly and the sail and stay are tied off such that they don't twist up in the bag, you can hoist and tension the stay without ever opening the bag - the stay snakes out of the bag quite nicely.

Check the stay tension, set up runners (if needed) to support the mast. Take up final tension on the stay. Attach the 1:1 halyard to the storm jib - which means you also want the head of the storm jib to be tied off to the mouth of the bag so you can find it without opening the bag.

At this point you have a stay and storm jib ready in place, all you need do is attach jib sheets, pop the bag, and hoist. Best part is on the douse thet sail just snakes back down to the deck - a big advantage over going with a storm jib with a built-in stay and no halyard, as when you drop that sail it will blow to leeward and may end up in the water.

Upshot - what you describe is done, and requires some thinking through on the mast, the halyards, and deck reenforcement. And then you spend a lot of time figuring out how to never need the dang thing - kind of like the life raft.

- rob/beetle
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