Second furler

[irwinsailor]

On this board I have noticed that there are many people that have a great deal of knowlege and I have come to respect their opinions. Anyway... I just looked at a picture of CSYman's boat and I noticed that he has a second furler. I have been kicking around the idea of putting a second on our boat. I thought it would be easier handle in bad weather as a 2 or 3 person crew. I now have a hank on jib and storm jib. Is it worth having?? What are the pro's and con's?

[O25]

There are a few new production boats with 2 furlers. The new Tartan 3400 has them as an option...one for a reacher and one for a self-tacking jib. I think the J/100 has the same option. Seems like a useful setup.

[Jon D]

Where would you put the furler?

A number of cutter rigged boats have staysail on a furler - or even some Shannon's have dual headstay with furlers - one a light air the other a high cut yankee or reacher.

It's not a good or bad but a series of trade-offs. I have a removable forestay on mine that attaches to a hydraluic tensioner. I would not put a furler on the forestay as I like a clear foredeck most of the time. Also like being able to set a staysail vs a storm sail. Both are hank-on.

[CSY Man]

Yeah, I put the second furler on my ship.

She was a cutter from the factory, but had been sailed as a sloop for years.

The attachments were already in place so I had my rigger man put on the Pro-Furl 25 furler and had new sail sawn of heavy cloth so as to serve double duty as a "storm sail".

Also added blocks and stuff for the sheets and the drum line as well as a winch aft on the cabin top to the Starboard, the Port side already had an extra winch.

The final result is pretty slick and it gives me more options for sail configurations....Instead of reefing the jib in a blow, I take it all the way in and use the stays'l instead with a reef in the main.

Makes for a stable boat and center of effort closer to the mast, etc.

The foredeck is still uncluttered as a more detailed picture would show.

Higly rcommended for my kind of boat....

[Euro Cruiser]

Gunner, the dilemma related to your question is what to do in tough weather. For local and island sailing, when you usually know the weather you will be getting before you set out, the double furler arrangement is convenient (no sail to bag) and easy (pull a string...). Offshore, that inner stay comes to serve a different purpose, as it allows you to continue sailing in higher winds but with less sail area and the CE inboard. The dilemma WRT a staysail on a furler is always going to be a 'one size serves all' sail which you want to help you in lighter winds (lighter cloth, bigger) vs. the demands the staysail must serve in heavy winds (smaller, stronger).

The option Jon has is to carry both a 'regular' staysail and also a storm jib, shifting down to the smaller, tougher sail as conditions build (but at the expense of some add'l effort and with storage space required for the bagged sail). Alternatively, he could rig a hanked-on staysail that is reefable, ala Pardeys - again, some work involved and with the cloth heavier than desired for lighter conditions but towards the effort of matching the sail to the conditions in heavier going. Meanwhile, the skipper with the furler staysail does less work but lives with the sail he initially chose, at some additional cost for the hardware.

Bottom line: depends on what you plan to do with your boat, how likely/unlikely it is you will be needing a smaller heavy-air staysail AND a larger, lighter cloth sail for your sailing plans, and how much money you have. (BTW inventories of used sails from firm's like Bacon's and Minnie's offer great value for these kinds of sails).

Jack

[irwinsailor]

Our boat came with every type of offshore sail. They are hank on style for what the sail maker called the "intermediate stay". Is it called a staysail stay? A problem that I do see is that my storm tri sail does not have its own track and there is no way that I could get that main off in any type of blow. At this time I have no plans to go across oceans so I'm not sure that I need everything that I read that I should have. But that second furler does look good to me and I like the idea of being able to shorten sail easily.

[O25]

I didn't understand the setup you were talking about (haven't seen the photo of CS's boat). The setup I referred to isn't a cutter rig with an inner staysail, but essentially has two headstays on the bow, only a foot or two apart. Check out the new Tartan 34 at www.tartanyachts.com.

[Catamount]

Jon D once whispered in the wind:
I have a removable forestay on mine that attaches to a hydraluic tensioner.

Jon, is your hydraulic tensioner a stand- alone cylinder, or is it part of a larger hydraulic system? If part of a larger system, how is it mounted?

I have four ports on my hydraulic panel valve but only two are in use (backstay and vang)...

Thanks,

Tim

[CSY Man]

Well, here is picture of my furlers, and the still open space on the foredeck with plenty of room for a 10' dink.,

This image is taken in the middle of hurrican Wilma:

http://cruisersforum.com/photopost//...php?photo=1442

Another image, at anchor in the Bahamas.

http://cruisersforum.com/photopost//...t=7&thecat=500

[Starbuck]

Yes, 025, those are two basically different rigs.

The sails you choose to fly give different options, but in general a double-headstay sloop (the inner stay well forward, as you mentioned) is more light-air oriented: a huge sail can be wound around that forward headstay for ghosting or power-reaching, and a more "working" sail ready on the inner headstay.

On a cutter or "cutter-rigged sloop" the inner or "intermediate" stay is well back (and now is a true forestay, as in CSY's pics), and gives more heavy air options as you strike the headsail and snug down with a smaller, heavier forestay sail (staysail) on that forestay.

Then there's Jack, who has a sloop with an added Solent stay, a variation of the inner forestay arrangement.

CSY, is your rig true cutter (mast stepped mid-ships), or cutter-rigged sloop (mast forward)?

[CSY Man]

Yeah, true cutter from the factory..The mast is well aft.

[Jon D]

Catamount once whispered in the wind:
Jon, is your hydraulic tensioner a stand- alone cylinder, or is it part of a larger hydraulic system? If part of a larger system, how is it mounted?

I have four ports on my hydraulic panel valve but only two are in use (backstay and vang)...

Thanks,

Tim

Tim it's a standalone system. but if you have 4 ports one yours it would be fairly simple to rig. All you need to do is run a new line forward to the new cylinder.

Hard part would be installing the right cylinder and mount so everything loads up correctly. Mine came with the boat from Moody.

[Catamount]

Jon, to make your inner stay removable, something must detach somewhere. So I guess my question is whether (1) your wire stay remains attached to your hydraulic cylinder, which in turn is detached/attached to a fitting on the deck (and the hydraulic cylinder goes with your stay when you stow it, presumably off to the side by the shrouds), or (2) your wire stay attaches/detaches from your hydraulic cylinder, which remains attached to your deck?

If I were to use my existing hydraulic pump, I would probably mount a cylinder horizontally on the foredeck, and bring the wire stay through some kind of turning block to the cylinder for tensioning. Or maybe attach the wire to a car on a track and use the hydraulic cylinder to move the car on the track in order to tension the stay (I've already got a track on the foredeck...). I'm not sure what the advantage would be to having a hydraulic system for tensioning a removable inner forestay, as opposed to some simple mechanical device like a lever, but I suppose its fun to scheme about... :-)

Regards,

Tim

A few years ago there was an article in Lattitude 38 condemning roller furling. I had always had hank on sails, and had only sailed on a few boats with roller furlers, and every one of them jammed. I was considering adding roller furling to my boat at the time, and discussed my concerns with a local rigger. He pointed out that, while the sail shape may suffer a bit, there was a much more important issue at hand. He pointed out that the rooler furling is much easier for his wife to handle, making sailing more enjoyable for her. The more she enjoys sailing, the more he gets to sail. A point well taken by me. as for the 2nd furler, a friend of mine has a 37' Spray cutter with 2 furlers. I have had the oppertunity to sail on that boat, and I have to say, it is a pleasure to not have to go forward to make sail changes. Especially when daysailing in fluky conditions. I am sold. I would not cruise without rooler furling on all headsails.
One other situation helped in this decision. I was sailing south of Monterey, and we hit 20kts with fluky gusts to about 35. 15ft seas at VERY short intervals. When we headed out of the anchorage, the wind was about 10, and the seas were calm. The change happened within 20 minutes sailing, and fairly sudden. As I went forward to change the headsail, I was under water up to my waist several times as we plowed through some of the breaking waves. We were approaching a point, and the seas and winds were confused. There was no way to keep from getting beat up. I would have been allot happier if I had a roller furler.

[Jon D]

Catamount once whispered in the wind:
Jon, to make your inner stay removable, something must detach somewhere. So I guess my question is whether (1) your wire stay remains attached to your hydraulic cylinder, which in turn is detached/attached to a fitting on the deck (and the hydraulic cylinder goes with your stay when you stow it, presumably off to the side by the shrouds), or (2) your wire stay attaches/detaches from your hydraulic cylinder, which remains attached to your deck?

Regards,

Tim

Tim the wire stay detaches from the hydraulic cylinder. The cylinder is mounted vertically through the deck [there is a plate on deck it passes through] has a big 'D' ring that a really heavy duty trigger style snap shackle SWL > 20,000lbs. attaches to.



The panel is then located in the fwd head which is just aft of that big hatch you see.