Opinions on Double-Enders

[jakegator]

hello everyone, I have been looking at boat designs for some time now with hopes of building a liveaboard. One desing caught my eye, its a hartley Norsk 40 double ender. I was wondering what peoples opinions on double enders are, mainly in terms of stability? Opinions, first hand experiences or sources are more than welcome!

Thank you for your help
-Jake

[duefocena]

Hi Jake ,
Sailed a Westsail 32' for 5 years in Hawaii . Stern broke up waves so predictably I swore I would never own any other type of stern. Typical sailing day in the winter there is 25 kts and 20' seas.

[Southern Star]

On the other hand, Robert Perry, who designed many successful 'double-enders' including the Valiant series of yachts, once wrote that he was never one who accepted the old saw about double-enders parting the seas like Moses. They reduce space for storage, the size of the cockpit, bouyancy aft and the resulting prismatic coefficient also tends to reduce performance. That being said, I love the look of many double enders and would be, with the right boat, quite prepared to live with these minor compromises. Certainly many of the double-enders have very sea-kindly underbody shapes and many were constructed and rigged for offshore sailing, whether or not the lack of a transom actually contributed to these attributes.

Brad

[duefocena]

While I can agree that some performance in speed might be lost it is minimal. Anyone who has backed a dbl Enders through a lock or crowded anchorage will attest that the maneuverability is hugely improved. I disagree about the parting of the seas having taken following 20's on a regular basis. I drove the Westsail and several others in those same conditions during charters and the dbl ends definitely got pushed around less.

[Mike OReilly]

Hi Jake, we've sailed our "new" double-ender (a 1977 Rafiki-37) for the past two seasons now. I would say it performs better at breaking the stern wave compared our our previous flat-stern boat. I don't perceive any "performance" limitations due to the design, although I'm a cruiser, not a racer, so I may be missing something.

You ask about "stability". Not exactly sure what you mean by that. If you are asking about tenderness, then that would be more dependent on other design characteristics (hull shape, keel, rig, displacement, etc.). If you're asking about capsize characteristics, this too would be determined by other factors.

For me, the negatives I do notice about going to a double-ender is the reduced stern volume. The shape also means the cockpit/stern/pushpit area harder to attach stuff to (bimini, windmill, windvane, motor mounts, etc.). Not that it's impossible, but a flat stern is a lot easier to work with. Other than that, I have no complaints (actually, I have no complaints at all -- I love our boat ).

[ronbo1]

As Robert Perry famously said, double-enders are good if you want to sail around the world, backwards.

That said, two bows are usually prettier than one.

Ronbo

[Capt Phil]

Owned, sailed and lived aboard an Ingrid 38 for about 20 years... she was one of the finest sea boats I ever had. Very comfortable, seakindly and safe. Sailed her from Vancouver, Canada to Alaska and back, 2 circum's of Vancouver Island, PNW to Mazatlan, Sea of Cortez and back to the Bay area... never let me down and sold her for more than I paid for her. Rare that I would disagree with Rob't Perry but it worked for me at the time. Capt Phil

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by ronbo1

As Robert Perry famously said, double-enders are good if you want to sail around the world, backwards.

I know you're havin' a laugh here Ronbo, but I've seen similar quotes ascribed to Bob Perry. I cannot, however, find any primary source for this quote. Can you point me in the right direction? I do find it odd that a marine architect, who has designed so many well-regarded double-enders, would disparage the design.

BTW, my double-ender (Rafiki-37) was designed by Canadian architect Stan Huntington. The previous owner used Bob Perry as a purchasing consultant when he bought our boat. Perry is quoted as saying "Stan really got it right when he designed the Rafiki 37." This is my preferred Perry quote

[GordMay]

Greetings and welcome aboard the CF, Jake.

[GordMay]

See also ➥ http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...n-16271-3.html

[Southern Star]

As I understand it, Perry was commissioned to design double-enders rather than having chosen that hull form on his own. We must remember the success of the Westsail 32 in the 70's - it was, for many, the dream cruising boat and its popularity led many companies to enter what was a new and expanding market.

Im any event, while I don't have it here, I should be able to find a source for Perry's quote about 'Moses parting the seas'. The comment about 'sailing around the world backwards' is one that I had not heard before.

Brad

[westsail42]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

I know you're havin' a laugh here Ronbo, but I've seen similar quotes ascribed to Bob Perry. I cannot, however, find any primary source for this quote. Can you point me in the right direction? I do find it odd that a marine architect, who has designed so many well-regarded double-enders, would disparage the design.

I recall a conversation with Bob a couple years ago (he did some design work for us) about our double ender (Skookum 28, Edwin Monk Jr Design) where he repeated that quote. I think he meant to be funny, not disparaging. He said personally he likes the look of double enders, but todays market requires more space below so you see less double enders these days.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by westsail42

I recall a conversation with Bob a couple years ago (he did some design work for us) about our double ender (Skookum 28, Edwin Monk Jr Design) where he repeated that quote. I think he meant to be funny, not disparaging. He said personally he likes the look of double enders, but todays market requires more space below so you see less double enders these days.

Thanks for the references guys. The context of current market demands (where bigger is better,) and just having fun with the quote (b/c every boat is funny in some way) makes more sense to me. It has just never made any sense that the guy who designed such beautiful, and well-proven vessels such as the Valiant, the Baba, the Tashiba and the Tayana, could honestly NOT like double-enders.

[Kettlewell]

I used to own the K. Aage Nielsen designed 37-foot Snow Star, built of wood by the Walsted yard in Denmark. She was the type of design that inspired Bob Perry's Valiant, but I think Nielsen's boats were a bit prettier. In any case, despite being very heavy with a full keel she was an amazing sailor. My favorite sailing memory was leaving Penobscot Bay into the teeth of a southwest summer wind headed for the Cape Cod Canal--essentially right on the nose, which made navigation very easy as we just had to strap her down hard and tack every hour or so. I don't think we ever had less than 20 knots on the nose and sometimes more, so it could have been a real slog but on Snow Star it was perfectly comfortable making around 7 knots through the water, self steering most of the time, with a smooth ride, quiet down below. One overnighter and we arrived at the canal feeling like we'd been out for a day sail it was all so easy and smooth. Another Aage Nielsen designed double-ender named Holger Danske took overall honors in the Bermuda Race back in the 1980s, which enraged all the owners of the stripped out lightweight racing boats. There are great double-ended designs out there, and there are bad ones.

[Geoduck]

My currrant boat was designed & built by Arthur Tiller in '41 in Thialand. It is a double ender with a fat canoe stern. The boat is wonderful in a following sea. It is fast for a ketch of 44'lod. Full keel, shoal draft. Solid teak constuction, heavy boat. Hull speed is 71/2 knts @2400rpm under power. I've seen 9knts on the meter under sail, going with the flow.
Anyway, It's my 2nd double ender -3rd if you want to count my 20' Nimble trailer sailer that I play with now & then. The other was an old commercial fish boat I used to own.
The differnce between them was in the shape of the hull of course - the fish boat had a deep forefoot and was lousy in a following sea - scared hell out of me crossing the bar a few times. Seemed to me that the deep forefoot tried to trip the boat going down hill on a wave. So I got rid of it and bought a boat with a horseshoe stearn and kept it for a dozen years or so- great bar crosser! Built by Wilbur Humbert in Coos Bay, Oregon
Double enders dont carry weight as well as other shapes. You have to be careful how you load them or you'll have them out of balance which will definately affect down hill performance. You lose a lot of easy storage in the stearn but maybe thats a good thing as we seem to fill all the available space we have with junk we think we'll need someday. The double ender has turned me into a thinking man when it comes to trying to find just the right place to put my junk. I had a 70' boat once too and I'm glad I dont have to worry about filling that one up again!
I had no trouble fitting a Monitor on the stearn - it was a cinch - did it in an afternoon.
As far as driving around in the marina goes - a full keel boat usually backs up pretty good, they're slow & heavy and you need to take your time but I dont have any trouble - I run her by myself mostly, use lots of fenders, long lines - havent crashed & burned yet!
One of the coolest things about having a double ended ketch is that when I go backwards, I become a schooner!!!
Have fun!