Interesting 'bluewater' test !! RTW

[thomm225]

Most distance races are usually pretty boring to watch but keep the racers occupied with the many small adjustments that can be made to include sail changes, sheeting, mast position, etc.

Then there's the constant quest for accurate weather, wind, and current data to figure a good best speed course to take.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by thomm225

You are right, I don't follow racing much anymore after doing around 120 events which equals around 500 races.

Sometimes the winner is the guy with the most skill, and sometimes not.

I won a 19 mile Seabuoy Race in 1998 simply because I stayed out of the current while the leaders were so busy racing each other they were in the out going tide.

My boat wasn't even setup properly but I still won. And I had a female crew that barely knew a sheet from a rudder.

That is just one small example.

Then there was the pre-America's Cup race where the Mighty Mary Team got a 44 boat length lead on Dennis Conner yet Conner won.

It wasn't skill, it was luck as in the wind he "luckily" received.

Sure luck or at least not having bad luck has to be part of any victory but one thing is club racing other top ocean solo racing with the best professional sailors competing with very similar boats.

The victory on this races was never unexpected, I mean never a 2th rate sailor won it. It was always won for one of the 5 world's best.

The ones that follow that race know who are the ones that can win it or not just because they know who are the best and because probably this is the top sail race that had more to do with talent and less with luck. Well, lack of luck is another completely different matter, like hitting a whale with the keel at speed, broken rudders or losing the mast are things that can make one lose the race.

Since the race became a true professional top event (many years ago) all that have won it are truly top solo racers, all among the best. No way a lesser sailor would have won that race.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Polux

Sure luck or at least not having bad luck has to be part of any victory but one thing is club racing other top ocean solo racing with the best professional sailors competing with very similar boats.

Ah, looks like you conveniently forgot about my America's Cup example.

Luck can sometimes play a part in sailboat racing at any level.

Btw, that used to be one hell of a club if you raced catamarans along the Gulf Coast in and around Ft Walton Beach and Pensacola back in the day. Quite a few of our Olympic Tornado Catamaran Sailors came from there.

It's not a lot of fun competing against those guys ........but at least you got to see what level you were at .............

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by Claude_Marie

Where the luck factor is Sun or No Sun.

Yep. May the 5th they may be sailing from China to Hawaii. I think of huge interest to all solo sailors. This one may be 4 or 5 days solo flight. I bet it is not Raymarine that provides the AP ...

;-)

Cheers,
b.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by thomm225

Ah, looks like you conveniently forgot about my America's Cup example.

Luck can sometimes play a part in sailboat racing at any level.

. .............

I was talking about solo circumnavigation races (that's what we are talking about). America's cup has nothing to do with that.

That's a type of race where money and the technologies / developments it can buy makes a major difference and that's what happened on last one. Nothing to do with luck there also: The best sailing team was winning till they come up on Oracle with a gadget that controlled trim on the daggers and that nobody else had. From that moment on they won all races.

[Claude_Marie]

Originally Posted by Polux

I was talking about solo circumnavigation races (that's what we are talking about). America's cup has nothing to do with that.

That's a type of race where money and the technologies / developments it can buy makes a major difference and that's what happened on last one. Nothing to do with luck there also: The best sailing team was winning till they come up on Oracle with a gadget that controlled trim on the daggers and that nobody else had. From that moment on they won all races.

Er, Er...we are talking of this original Global Chalenge revival, (see OP original post) not modern RTW races.

That said, whilst you mention it, thanks, I heard the "gadget" was borrowed from Boeing, is it correct ?

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Polux

I was talking about solo circumnavigation races (that's what we are talking about). America's cup has nothing to do with that.

That's a type of race where money and the technologies / developments it can buy makes a major difference and that's what happened on last one. Nothing to do with luck there also: The best sailing team was winning till they come up on Oracle with a gadget that controlled trim on the daggers and that nobody else had. From that moment on they won all races.

Luck probably has even more say in a solo RTW race.

Skipper a caught a wind shift and changed course to benefit while skipper B decided to take a nap........

Luck or skill. I think Luck!

Skipper B had his boat struck by lightning which fried all his electronics..............

Skipper A happened to split from the fleet and "lucked" into some nice wind or better wind than everybody else because he had a "feeling."

[boatman61]

Spectators are always right..

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Claude_Marie

Er, Er...we are talking of this original Global Chalenge revival, (see OP original post) not modern RTW races.

That said, whilst you mention it, thanks, I heard the "gadget" was borrowed from Boeing, is it correct ?

Well, no. The principles yes.

The Global challenge revival is a solo circumnavigation race without assistance it seems appropriated to compare it with other solo circumnavigation races without assistance.

[K_V_B]

Originally Posted by thomm225

Ah, looks like you conveniently forgot about my America's Cup example.

Luck can sometimes play a part in sailboat racing at any level.

Or in the case of the Americas cup; having the best lawyers.


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[Polux]

Originally Posted by thomm225

Luck probably has even more say in a solo RTW race.

Skipper a caught a wind shift and changed course to benefit while skipper B decided to take a nap........

Luck or skill. I think Luck!

Skipper B had his boat struck by lightning which fried all his electronics..............

Skipper A happened to split from the fleet and "lucked" into some nice wind or better wind than everybody else because he had a "feeling."

Humm, that's why on the Vendee globe or on the Solitaire du Figaro the best sailors normally win (unless they have bad luck)

Only chance had lead Mich Desjoyeux to win among dozens of top professional solo sailors both the Solitaire du Figaro (2007) and the next Vendee Globe globe (2008-2009). He had won already the previous Vendee. An incredibly lucky guy. The other professional sailors should not have nicknamed him "le professeur" but the "lucky one".

François Gabart that had won the last Vendee globe solo circumnavigation race is also a very lucky guy: he had won previously the 2010 Solo sailing French championship, in 2011 the Transat B to B in 2013 the Fastnet (with Mitch). And his luck goes on because after the Vendee Globe, last year, won the Transat Route du Rhum, the biggest Transat race. Another one that deserves to be called " the lucky one"

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Polux

Humm, that's why on the Vendee globe or on the Solitaire du Figaro the best sailors normally win (unless they have bad luck)

Only chance had lead Mich Desjoyeux to win among dozens of top professional solo sailors both the Solitaire du Figaro (2007) and the next Vendee Globe globe (2008-2009). He had won already the previous Vendee. An incredibly lucky guy. The other professional sailors should not have nicknamed him "le professeur" but the "lucky one".

François Gabart that had won the last Vendee globe solo circumnavigation race is also a very lucky guy: he had won previously the 2010 Solo sailing French championship, in 2011 the Transat B to B in 2013 the Fastnet (with Mitch). And his luck goes on because after the Vendee Globe, last year, won the Transat Route du Rhum, the biggest Transat race. Another one that deserves to be called " the lucky one"

Yep, the best racers are usually the winners especially when they have a little more luck than the other guy.

You have to be a pretty good sailor to win any event but a little luck is always appreciated.

I know because I have beaten some of the best when I shouldn't have which I have pointed out.

This solo race that this thread is about will have some luck involved for whoever wins.

Count on it.

[Claude_Marie]

Originally Posted by Polux

The Global challenge revival is a solo circumnavigation race without assistance it seems appropriated to compare it with other solo circumnavigation races without assistance.

With that "minor" difference, cough, cough...
No access to weather forecast in any form or shape.
Which leaves a lot of room for luck.

Something, which has been explained kindly and politely already.
For instance with this America's Cup/Denis Conner exemple, I insist on exemple (nobody said that intrinsically RTW and Am'Cup compared) when a win or a loose was pure sheer luck.

Or, do you just fail to understand the following logic :
IF (all conditions met) THEN (should unexpected results occur)
WHEN (fewer conditions met) THEREFORE (more unexpected results occur) ?

This IF+THEN+WHEN=THEREFORE is (should be ?) a pretty standard logic when trying to demonstrate a point.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Claude_Marie

With that "minor" difference, cough, cough...
No access to weather forecast in any form or shape.
Which leaves a lot of room for luck.

Something, which has been explained kindly and politely already.
For instance with this America's Cup/Denis Conner exemple, I insist on exemple (nobody said that intrinsically RTW and Am'Cup compared) when a win or a loose was pure sheer luck.

Or, do you just fail to understand the following logic :
IF (all conditions met) THEN (should unexpected results occur)
WHEN (fewer conditions met) THEREFORE (more unexpected results occur) ?

This IF+THEN+WHEN=THEREFORE is (should be ?) a pretty standard logic when trying to demonstrate a point.

It seems we are talking about different things: I was saying that on a modern solo circumnavigation race (like the Vendee Globe) luck plays a limited role. It is about talent and not having bad luck rather then having luck provided one has one of the several competitive boats that are very close on performances (box rule). That was what was being contested, that a circumnavigation solo race is always about luck.

Regarding the Golden Globe revival race it is not only a stupidly dangerous race (on 32/36ft boat on the roaring forties without weather information) as it will be raced in very different boats and with sailors with completely different racing solo qualifications. I would bet that some would have not any previously to this race and of course that increases the danger factor.

Even serious solo Transat races have mandatory long smaller qualification races for the ones that never had made a transat to be sure that they are up to the task.

Given the huge difference between the possible boats competing and the big possible difference in sailors racing qualifications I would not say that it would only be about luck: A much better sailor with a much more competitive boat, provided it can maintain the boat in one piece, will certainly beat much less experienced sailors on much slower boats, no matter the lack of weather information. After all they would all be following the trade winds were the right winds are expected to be fairly regular.

But a race with so possible dissimilar possible boats, so possible different racing qualification can only be a very amateurish one and off course in very amateur racing luck plays a greater part. This very amateur character will only make it more dangerous.

We can say that the original one was an amateur race too and that's right but it is good to remember that only one boat finished the race that they had luck in not having more than one causality and that today safety standards have nothing to do with the ones from the 60's.

[Rohan]

Not sure if this has been mentioned already in this thread, but how could the race possibly check for cheating?

These days any tablet, smartphone, and even some watches run GPS. Unless they give each boat a very thorough searching along with a strip search of every crewmember before the race, how would they know if someone snuck a GPS device aboard?

Heck, even with those precautions, an enterprisng person could simply pre-position a device at a buoy and pick it up during the race.