Hull Shapes and Behaviour in Heavy Seas

[boatman61]

Looks nice.. Should do nicely and I like Bob Perry's work.. Even tho' I'm a Brit..

[Metal Boat]

Originally Posted by NevisDog

(except for that comment earlier about a Tayana having iron encapsulated ballast, not a great idea if correct).

please elaborate it seems this boat has iron encapsulated ballast

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Metal Boat

please elaborate it seems this boat has iron encapsulated ballast

If water gets in the iron rusts.. But should be easy for a surveyor to check.

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

Metal Boat,

See if you can't get the relevant pictures to this thread, please? Do be aware, there will be differing opinions, from those of us who've sailed fin keeled boats for 30 + years over those who have enjoyed full keeled boats.

Ann

And them of us who have owned and sailed both....

If my memory serves... Tzu Hang was 'long keeled'.....

[El Pinguino]

And also... Regardless of keel type I wouldn't have a canoe sterned boat in a purple fit....

[MartinR]

This boat ticks the right boxes. Bob Perry is a good designer.

[MartinR]

To insert pictures, just copy the link to the picture in your gallery and insert it. Have to go to "Advanced"

[Metal Boat]

yep pictures sorted check out the previous page

[NevisDog]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

... Regardless of keel type I wouldn't have a canoe sterned boat in a purple fit....

You wouldn't want a Perry Valiant 42 or 47??? Enlighten us, those of us who drool at the very thought... (Okay I get the encapsulated iron thing but hey, no boat is perfect.)

[NevisDog]

Originally Posted by Metal Boat

... I like this boat it has a good hull shape

Mate, you don't need our advice, you have an eye for this.

Those of us who appreciate the virtues of full-keel boats will love the deep centreline on this one - it makes a helluva difference to motion in a seaway to have that deep forebody and afterbody.

Pay heed to Paul's advice on metal fittings, etc, particularly for Eastern built boats but I guess same applies to all boats - there's gonna be problems with age but those are mainly reflected in the price negotiations.

[JPA Cate]

I've seen only one iron ballast failure. I do not know whether or not such problems occur often. Salt water got into the iron bits, and enough expansion occurred for leaks into the boat. The boat owner was trying to come in through the side of the keel, to dig out the rusty, damp mass. In retrospect, I am a little surprised he was able to re ballast it and repair the outside. He was months and months on the hard.

A survey should pick up a problem with iron ballast,especially if you make a point of it with the surveyor. Many boats have it, and if problems due to iron ballast were common, I'd think I'd be aware of it if.

The so called "black iron" tanks in Taiwanese built boats do have a reputation for eventually leaking, and generally requiring [expensive] removal of joinery to access the tank for removal and replacement. Sometimes, some of the joinery is broken, and requires to be rebuilt, so it's a big job, and having such replacement already done by a previous owner would be one major job the new buyer would not have to take on.

Ann

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by NevisDog

Does no one on CF have experience of these downwind racing sleds? I'd love to hear what it's like aboard one in heavy seas. Does the off-watch get strapped into their bunks or is that an urban myth?

I have. I sailed as navigator on Icon, a new 65' carbon fiber flyer in the 2000 Sydney Hobart Race. The conditions were rough and the winds strong, and we experienced both upwind and downwind sailing. The boat was not difficult to handle. We were forth to finish, if I recall correctly.

Neither upwind or downwind were any crew required to be strapped in while off watch. The worst problem was that I dropped my phone in the bilge next to the toilet and it took an electric hair dryer back in Hobart to make it work again.

Since then the Captain and mate delivered the boat to varies places in a variety of conditions, and they only problems they reported were trying to beat each other's speed records under white sails of over 21 kts.

The boat has been cruised and raced in the PNW since then.

My friends James Burwick and Somira Sao sailed their Open 40 race boat Anasasi Girl with three small children on board from South Africa to Chile, and the trip was proceeding uneventfully until the mast broke approaching Chile. They have since repaired the mast and sailed the boat, now with four small children, from Chile to the Caribbean. They report no problems with handling this type of boat in any conditions.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by NevisDog

Briefly:
(1) Vessel safety depends on structural strength, as mentioned above. Try not to confuse these two issues.
(2) It's not what I think - it's the findings of the report into the '79 disaster - folks lost their lives due to the then-current trend towards excessively wide, excessively-shallow, tender hulls that were/are, beyond any question, seriously at risk of knockdown in storm waves, due to their hull shape.

I guess I'm sort of tired of reading on this thread that IOR boats are "crappy".

Since I have one it's sort of like having someone insult my wife.

Let's get some facts out here.

Fastnet: (yes I've read the books). Most of the abandoned boats were recovered intact. More lives were lost by people getting into life rafts than any other way. The IOR boats in that race had weak rudders, and were tender. But MANY of those boats are still around and sailing safely. A sistership to my boat, La Pantera, 42' IOR, sailed in that race with friends of mine on board and they DID NOT realize that the conditions were so bad that people were dying. They just kept racing.

Wind Vanes: My 1979 IOR boat has carried me over 55,000 ocean miles and almost all of it was on the Monitor wind vane. We have NO problems with control in even quite strong winds and big seas, upwind or down, and the monitor and spade rudder keep the boat sailing and under control. We have NEVER broached this boat, not even under strong conditions under spinnaker (while racing, I don't do that while cruising with my wife) although we have rounded up several times, quite a different matter.

Loss of control due to rudder coming out of the water: Sorry folks, it's just so much hogwash. In all the years I've been sailing I've never had loss of control that way, on any type of boat. What is more likely is that a boat will become overpowered and round up, (or broach) heeling so much that the rudder is mostly out of the water and ineffective, and the boat then spins to windward. One thing not to be ignored is that the fin keel boat with a powerful rudder can regain its control and have the steering power to quickly turn back on course. Even this type of round up is not common in my experience. When we are cruising, as opposed to racing, we don't carry so much sail that the windvane and rudder cannot keep the boat on course. We don't broach.

Now, I'm not calling anybody's boat "crappy" and I'd appreciate some respect for my actual experiences, as opposed to book references and Internet experts. And if anyone doubts any of what I am saying about my own experiences, it is ALL documented on the Internet, with log book pages, photos and stories, and I'd be happy to provide any links you want.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by NevisDog

Does anyone here think the IOR boats that suffered so badly, in what was after all only a Force 10 storm, think those hullforms a sound choice for heavy weather

The difference back then ('79 Fastnet) was (a) excessive beam-to-length, (b) inadequate AVS and (c) excessive area under the negative part of the GZ curve.

Yes, NevisDog, I do. I own one, a 1979 IOR design in fact. Same beam to length ratio, although my ballast is all in the keel and my AVS is about 130.

It is my choice. The hull form is FINE in VERY heavy weather. But if the wave with your name on it rolls your boat, nobody is going to be immune from broken bones, and no hull form offers immunity from that. My friend's full keel Herreshoff 36 Pollen Path was rolled in the Queen's Birthday storm on the way to Tonga from New Zealand.

My boat is fast, comfortable, stable, and easy for two old cruisers to sail around the world, including to many of the areas with the worst reputations for heavy weather.

Originally Posted by NevisDog

IOR boats were around for a long time before the Fastnet disaster scuttled that little design aberration, literally

Fastnet did not kill IOR. Year to year obsolescence killed IOR. (That and the fact that IOR boats were not particularly fast for their size, as Bruce Farr and others demonstrated). They were still the top racing class in the mid 1980's. MANY builders of racer cruisers still produced IOR type hull designs into the mid 1990's, and some still do.

In racing, IOR was supplanted by IMS which itself evolved into slabsided, internally ballasted boats with less stability than the IOR boats which preceded them.

Originally Posted by NevisDog

Anyone out there with actual experience of those downwind, arrow-head, racing sleds in Southern Ocean conditions?

Yes, I have, See another comment.

[boatman61]

Wow.. Been accused of BS in the past but Hogwash..!!!
Man your cruel..