Help Me Look for a Boat, Please

[skipmac]

By the way, in case this point wasn't made, a project boat can end up costing a lot more than a boat in better condition.

Rule of thumb and though it sounds humorous there's more truth than humor in the statement, "any boat project will cost twice as much and take twice as long as your best estimate." Take this from someone that has taken on projects a couple of times.

[Cheechako]

Originally Posted by skipmac

By the way, in case this point wasn't made, a project boat can end up costing a lot more than a boat in better condition.

Rule of thumb and though it sounds humorous there's more truth than humor in the statement, "any boat project will cost twice as much and take twice as long as your best estimate." Take this from someone that has taken on projects a couple of times.

Absolutely! and that statement was optimistic!

[annsni]

I wouldn't worry as much about the separate space for each child since really, they don't need it. Kids through the ages have done really well sharing spaces and when they get to college, when they are sharing a room the size of a small walk-in closet, they will feel quite at home if they have shared on the boat. While we don't live aboard, we've had our Catalina 42 3 cabin with 4 kids for 13 years and we've cruised for weeks with really no problems and when we come home, two of them come to their shared room. Honestly, we find that the kids end up all over the boat and it's only when they are really tired or bedtime that they are going into their cabins for sure. Otherwise they are on the foredeck, in the salon, in the cockpit or when we're at anchor, even in the dinghy! So open your horizons and let the kids share.

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by johngfoster

Accomodations for passage-making is one thing, but the reality is that most live-aboard sailors, and even cruisers, spend most of their time at anchor, or at a dock.

This is very true but you still have to consider where everyone will live and sleep when you're on passage. Not having a good sea berth could turn the family against this plan in a big hurry.

Originally Posted by johngfoster

As far as the kids go, would you like to sleep on the couch at home for the next 5 years? I doubt it. We all like "our space" where we don't have to pack up our bed and put it away every night.

I totally relate to this. That's the reason I bought a center cockpit aft cabin boat. I'm not a great fan of sleeping in the forepeak and hate sleeping on the settee where I have to pull out the bed and make it up every night. However, with the size of your family (large) and the size of your budget (not large) you might have to make some compromises. Either in the sleeping arrangements or some of your other, long list of preferences.

Sure you might get lucky and find that once in a lifetime deal, I have seen then a couple of times in my career. Owner dies, family doesn't need the money, sells great boat really cheap to someone they like and who promises to take good care of dad's boat. I saw that once, but I wouldn't base my future plans on a huge stroke of luck.

[SoundOfSilence]

Is there any way you can manage to extend your budget to $150 000,- because then you can get a really nice boat which ticks more of your boxes...

[johngfoster]

Does the recommendation for Morgans apply to this one?

1988 Catalina Morgan 45 Center Cockpit Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by johngfoster

Accomodations for passage-making is one thing, but the reality is that most live-aboard sailors, and even cruisers, spend most of their time at anchor, or at a dock. So yeah, we would spend a lot of time down below (each night). As far as the kids go, would you like to sleep on the couch at home for the next 5 years? I doubt it. We all like "our space" where we don't have to pack up our bed and put it away every night. Yes, kids can share a double berth, but with 3 of them we would need to be able to sleep 5, each in their own berth (shared double berth for my wife and I). And yes, my kids each have their own bed. Two share a room, but they still have their own bed in their room.

John, that's exactly my point. Two share a CABIN. Then it works in your budget.

Otherwise, your option is to buy one of those BVI charter boats with more cabins that any sense makes. You get more cabins but LESS "public" space, which makes NO sense to me.

Many bareboats are built especially for that market, as cheaply as a boat can be built. Some come with more cabins and heads than private owners need, at the cost of fewer more comfortable cabins.

As noted by others, either increase your budget or learn that within your budget there are limitations in what is available on the market, i.e., how boats are built.

And when it gets dark out, if it's warm, people WILL be outside, NOT down below.

I agree, the worst thing you could do is use the main saloon as a regular berth for anyone.

Good luck.

[vjm]

I don't see anything about wife or kids having any experience. If that is true, I would highly suggest a charter first. One of more of them may make it plain they love the life, or that they hate it. Once you know everyone likes the luxury sailing life, your wife needs experience pronto. It sort of sounds like you own a boat now, but you are the only one interested in sailing. That would be a bad place to start. If that is true, consider an interim boat you can all use together, even if kids are sleeping on settees at night. That will tell you if your project is a good one for your group.

If everyone likes it, and your wife (and hopefully all kids) are sailing regularly and building skills and enthusiasm, then think about hiring someone like John Kretschmer or Bob Perry to consult. You are going to compromise a lot on your list of wants. A consultant can help you end up with the fewest compromises.

[JPA Cate]

Try thinking outside the nine dots. How about an old race boat from the '70's, say a Palmer Johnson Standfast 40? Two quarterberths, two pilot berths, a forepeak that can be modified to have a v-berth or pipe berths. Curtains for privacy. You would want a watermaker (because the water capacity is not huge). The boat should routinely give you 140-180 mi. days, and performs quite well to windward. Not too hard to convert to a cutter. Would want roller furling, s/t winches, dodger, etc. It would be minimalist, there isn't very much stowage space for grub and tools.

Things to look at (must inspect chainplates). Decks were balsa cored, and our PJ36 had some water intrusion at the deck penetration for the chain plates. Always felt safe aboard. Lived aboard and cruised overseas for about 18 yrs. on her.

Maybe an old Via 36? Mom & Pop get the forepeak, kids share the cabins. Sleep on settees in bumpy weather?

You guys really need sea time on boats together to decide what will suit you best.

Ann

Someone above suggested you look at a bunch of boats, and see what kinds of compromises your family is keen to make, then ask for comments. Seems like a good idea to me.

[johngfoster]

Originally Posted by vjm

I don't see anything about wife or kids having any experience. If that is true, I would highly suggest a charter first. One of more of them may make it plain they love the life, or that they hate it. Once you know everyone likes the luxury sailing life, your wife needs experience pronto. It sort of sounds like you own a boat now, but you are the only one interested in sailing. That would be a bad place to start. If that is true, consider an interim boat you can all use together, even if kids are sleeping on settees at night. That will tell you if your project is a good one for your group.

If everyone likes it, and your wife (and hopefully all kids) are sailing regularly and building skills and enthusiasm, then think about hiring someone like John Kretschmer or Bob Perry to consult. You are going to compromise a lot on your list of wants. A consultant can help you end up with the fewest compromises.

Very good points, VJM. In fact, a few nights ago my wife approached me and asked me how serious I was about this dream of mine. We had a good conversation, that ended with her suggesting she get some formal education in sailing from an instructor at a sailing school. My thoughts were in line with this, and before even spending the money on a boat, I want to make sure she would enjoy even short stints on a boat with the family. To accomplish this, we plan to try a few bareboat trips in the next few years, but not before she has taken some lessons. Only then, IF she likes it, will we consider moving forward with the purchase of our own boat that we could use for this (our current Capri 25 would not be ideal ). So yeah, some may say I'm being a little premature with this conversation, and they are probably right. But I've been dreaming about this for about 20yrs already, and have given it quite some thought.

My dream has evolved as I have learned more about what is realistic and practical, and as my preferences and tastes have evolved. It started out dreaming of a Vagabond 47, evolved into an HR 53, then explored the possibility of a Van de Stadt design (Image series of boats/Trintellas), back to HRs, but 42-46 models, then dabbled in the Albergs both 35 and 37. However, as my family has grown, it has got me thinking again about some of the bigger boats. If my wallet had grown like my family, I'd be OK. But in fact the opposite has happened If it were just my wife and I, I'd probably look no further than the Alberg 37, as these can be had much more affordably, are sea kindly, good sailing boats, and built like tanks (at least the hull). But trying to squeeze 3 small children in one with us, especially for long-term live-aboard sailing, I think would be a bit much. Thus my original question.

[johngfoster]

Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate

Try thinking outside the nine dots. How about an old race boat from the '70's, say a Palmer Johnson Standfast 40? Two quarterberths, two pilot berths, a forepeak that can be modified to have a v-berth or pipe berths. Curtains for privacy. You would want a watermaker (because the water capacity is not huge). The boat should routinely give you 140-180 mi. days, and performs quite well to windward. Not too hard to convert to a cutter. Would want roller furling, s/t winches, dodger, etc. It would be minimalist, there isn't very much stowage space for grub and tools.

Things to look at (must inspect chainplates). Decks were balsa cored, and our PJ36 had some water intrusion at the deck penetration for the chain plates. Always felt safe aboard. Lived aboard and cruised overseas for about 18 yrs. on her.

Maybe an old Via 36? Mom & Pop get the forepeak, kids share the cabins. Sleep on settees in bumpy weather?

You guys really need sea time on boats together to decide what will suit you best.

Ann

Someone above suggested you look at a bunch of boats, and see what kinds of compromises your family is keen to make, then ask for comments. Seems like a good idea to me.

I have wondered about this. I'm not afraid to build out the inside of a good solid boat hull. I'm pretty good with my hands, particularly with woodworking, and even with fiberglass work. But my concerns with a racer are: how will it ride in the ocean? Will it pound, or will it have a sea-kindly motion (it will probably pound); will outfitting it and building out the interior to meet my wishes increase the weight beyond its design specs and change its sailing characteristics, let alone its safety? I don't know, but if the right boat were available for the right price, I'd consider this as a viable option as well, as I could build out the interior exactly the way I wanted it.

[UNCIVILIZED]

Regarding your search for a boat, you have some good conceptual ideas. And I’ll get back to that soon. And Ann's tips on the subject are Great.
But at the moment, you’re probably putting the cart a bit before the horse. Plus there are some things which you & your other half need to consider TOGETHER. While you formulate this plan.

One of them being, that she needs to be comfortable doing most, if not all, of the tasks onboard the boat. Especially the ones which are physically & emotionally stressful. Including docking, handling the boat in heavy weather, & dealing with all of the loads on things, via the various mechanical advantageous systems onboard.
As her being at ease with/about these tasks, could easily make or break your; sailing together, marriage, & or, cruise. So, to me, that’d be one of the first priorities. As it’s one which is very prevalent in sailing.

IE; She needs to learn to sail without you around, & to handle a boat of whatever size you’re thinking about.
Some of that topic/theme is covered in here http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ng-161019.html
And it’s also one which is echoed by many of the successful cruising couples out there, who stay at it for any length of time.

Too, & this is a semi-segue into the boat choice thing. She, & all of you, need to be comfortable living together in a Tiny space, under some very stressful conditions.
Follow some of the links in the attached pages http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...is-153569.html

As to your ideas on boats, it is wise, for instance, for each person having their own bunk/personal private space. That’s key, even for kids. As boats are small enough places to be cooped up with other humans in, anyway.
We all kind of need an area into which we can retreat, & recharge, or just “be”, regardless of age.
For it’s difficult for most people to live entirely within their own heads.

So, some ideas for boats are covered in the attached pages, or their links. And I wrote up the pluses & minuses of a Cal 29, in several of them. To give newbies an idea of what’s important to look for in a boat… Including, lots of bunks. As you alluded to. Regarding which, designs which have several quarter berths & pilot berths, would likely serve you well.
That, & you might look at something which has an aft cabin, like a Peterson 44/Kelly-Peterson 46 (same design). As it’d give you & your partner a private space, plus, a good deal of room for the kids. And common areas as well. Both inside, & topside.

Also, that design tends to sail pretty well, & has a good owner’s association. To include where various ones are for sale, & in what condition, etc.

Plus, when you’re looking at boats, the easiest way to judge their speed, is to take a look at their PHRF (racing) rating. It’s based on how well a given boat type performs under an average of conditions, and +/- it’s a pretty accurate yardstick.
PHRF New England - Handicapping - Base Handicaps
Also, for a reality check regarding boat speed, there’s this page, on Beth Leonard & Evans Starzinger’s excellent website Click on where it says “Passage Speed Calculator” Calculators
Plus, there’s this great article on the topic as well http://bethandevans.com/pdf/200mile.pdf

Keep in mind, too, that it’s not tough to find a well fitted out 30’-35’ boat for $10k - $15k, & use her as a trial horse, in order to hone your skills. As well as general enjoyment. And then, on the other end, more or less, get back what you put into her.

Then, if your brain’s not too fried yet, go to Mahina Expeditionss conducts sailing and navigation training and expeditions in the South Pacific and offers offshore sailing seminars
They’re a couple who teach both Expeditioning, & Offshore Sailing (plus the skills for same), in addition to professionally helping people to find what boat(s) would best suit them, & their sailing styles & goals.
And you can ask yourselves the “hard” questions, if you dare, via
Kurt Hughes Multihull Design - Catamarans and Trimarans for Cruising and Charter
And Kurt Hughes Multihull Design - Catamarans and Trimarans for Cruising and Charter

Finally, but significantly, you’ll (both, together) need to figure out that intricate dance, of handling; the boat, plus raising, & taking care of kids while on it. Especially for sailing jaunts which last more than a few hours or days. And for some that's easy, while for others it takes a good bit of time & practice.

PS: I’ve probably written this "pick a boat thing" a dozen plus times, for several different folks. Each time, emphasizing different things. So if you’re curious, a custom search of this website should turn up those posts. Including a very good one on “what was/is your favorite boat”, or something like that.

[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by johngfoster

I have wondered about this. I'm not afraid to build out the inside of a good solid boat hull. I'm pretty good with my hands, particularly with woodworking, and even with fiberglass work. But my concerns with a racer are: how will it ride in the ocean? Will it pound, or will it have a sea-kindly motion (it will probably pound); will outfitting it and building out the interior to meet my wishes increase the weight beyond its design specs and change its sailing characteristics, let alone its safety? I don't know, but if the right boat were available for the right price, I'd consider this as a viable option as well, as I could build out the interior exactly the way I wanted it.

A racer will sail MUCH better than your average cruiser, however, she'll be a bit more high strung. In that, she probably will have running backstays, as well as a baby stay. All of which will need to be juggled when it's blowing. That, & she may have rod rigging. Which, when it's time to replace it, it's real pricey. Plus you can't do the work yourself, nor have the work done in remote locales.
Though you can convert such boats to wire, or synthetic rigging. Which are much cheaper, easier to work with, & to source.

She'll sail noticably better upwind, probably with little pounding, depending on the design. But the lack off pounding, & speedyness are what racers desire, & pounding is slow.
Too, she'll be much faster on a reach, & when running. See my PHRF link above.

Interiors are commonly added to "ex" racers, without issue. So long as you don't cut out any of the important structural bits.
Just try not to add too much weight in the ends, as they can be sensitive about that. Slowing them down proportionally more than in a cruising design.
But then there's a gal (Capt. Liz Clark) who's sailed her Cal 40', which are known to pound. From CA, down to Central America, & then over to French Polynesia. Solo
www.swellvoyage.com & she's on Facebook, & Instagram, etc. And is a Patagonia ambassador.

Also, regarding weight, most racing boats are designed to have a crew of 10 or more. Plus be able to accomodate the stores for a crew of a half a dozen plus guys, their consumables for 3-4wks (minimum), & a full sail inventory.
So, generally, the boat will take the weight. And Ann T. Cate/Jim Cate's PJ Standfast 36' was an IOR racing design, that they cruised for many, many years.

The only catch is that racers are designed to use crew as ballast, on the weather rail. So when cruising them, short handed, you just need to reef a little sooner.
Oh, & too, some don't have much of a bilge. Plus the light weight ones don't take groundings well, as their floor/keel (support) grids are a bit lean. Coupled with having deep, bolt on keels.
But older designs, like Ann suggested, or that I alluded to, offhand, make great cruisers.

PS: While I too am definitely a tool guy, rebuilding a boat's interior is a HUGE project. Unless you've done it several times before, & even then...
Plus, you'll have Lots of projects to do as it is, if you're truly outfitting a boat for serious cruising.
"Words from the Guru" (Nigel Calder) on said subject
http://www.cruisingworld.com/how/refit-reality-check

[UNCIVILIZED]

There are some other pointers on looking for a boat in this thread, & via some of what I wrote in it. http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ml#post2082019

In the thread, one of the comments I make, is about contacting the owners of boats which interest you, & or have features which you want to know more about. And there was one way to do this which I forgot to add.

It's to leave a boat of interest's owner a note/contract request, through the marina office. So that then the owner can decide if they are up for chatting with you.
But it's a way to ensure that your message gets to them. And a few people have used said method to reach me, over the years. Plus, vice versa.

[swpete]

I have placed my allied mistress 40 up for sale. It has a new engine and generator all sails are new price is set at $99,900.

Originally Posted by johngfoster

Sorry if this has already been discussed elsewhere, but I didn't find what I was looking for when I looked around the sight.

I'm hoping to be packing up the family and sailing off into the Pacific in the next 5-10 years or so. I'm trying to decide what boat I should be looking for. I obviously need something that can safely cross oceans, so blue-water capable is a must. My family consists of 5 souls--myself, my wife, and 3 daughters that will range from 5-10 y/o at the time of departure. As such, I expect I would need a vessel that would have accomodations where each child could have their "space" (read "own berth"). Would prefer not to have to take down the salon table each night for sleeping arrangements for the girls though. I would like a vessel that sails well, and can make good speed. Occasional 200NM days would be nice, but not a deal breaker. I do want it to be able to point reasonably well, and have a fairly comfortable ride. It does need to be of quality construction, and to me this rules out any of the Beneteaus, Hunters, or other cheap plastic boats. Budget has not been set yet, but I doubt I'll have over $100,000 US (probably less than half that) to spend on the boat.

I've looked around at a few offerings, and have been particularly drawn to the Alberg 37. However, I don't think it has enough berths (unless you rearrange the settee every night). The Cheoy Lee Rhodes Reliant 41 (or 3-cabin version of the Cheoy Lee Offshore 40). But these still require one person to have the salon as "their space".

Are there any other options I should be looking at? I'm willing to get a "project boat", depending on how much, and what needs to be done to get her sea-worthy. If money wasn't an obstacle, I'd get a new model Hallberg-Rassy 53 or 54, but I don't have an extra million laying around.