Heaving To With a Fin Keel...

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Different boats heave to differently -- even different boats with the same keel type. Many fin keel boats heave to just fine.

My present boat has a high performance bulb keel, and heaves to better than my previous boat, which had a modified full keel. She heaves to splendidly -- don't even really need to lash the helm. I've spent many happy hours hove to in my present boat.

Caveat: I'm not necessarily arguing with Boatman. I have never hove-to in a F10. Sailed in a F10, but not hove to. I don't know whether it would work or not. Boatman is much more experienced in such situations than I am.

But in a F4 to F6 -- put the helm over, go below, set a radar watch zone, and make love. If you have a crew appropriate to that activity . . .

[otherthan]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Different boats heave to differently -- even different boats with the same keel type. Many fin keel boats heave to just fine.

My present boat has a high performance bulb keel, and heaves to better than my previous boat, which had a modified full keel. She heaves to splendidly -- don't even really need to lash the helm. I've spent many happy hours hove to in my present boat.

dont know if my boat qualifies as bulb keel? but she has a rather large bulb...photo dont show it much

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by jobi

dont know if my boat qualifies as bulb keel? but she has a rather large bulb...photo dont show it much

Well, and how does she heave to? Otherwise, OT!

[Cheechako]

My experience of heaving to in f9-10 was not good , no matter what, the boat would be thrown by the wave motion onto the other tack and start sailing uncontrollably. Otherwise she would lie too broadside to the wind , effectively lying ahull. There was too much tweaking to get her to lie to the wind. In lower Winds or more regular wave trains various fin keelers could be hove to but not with any great long term lack of monitoring.
This is right on the mark. In heavier conditions, it's not the sail plan that dictates what happens at all. The force of the water turns the boat down. For instance, my Passport 47 (very long fin) would not keep the nose up even with the main only and the helm alee. With helm centered she would heave to for a minute or so and then be thrown bow down to wallow in the trough.
Practising heaving to with a fin keel on the bay does not replicate offshore conditions.

[Ex-Calif]

Originally Posted by jobi

whats your experience when conditions dictate that its beter to heave to and stay inside...fin keel vs full keel

in particular these boats!!!

My boat has a shorter chord but similar bulb keel. One advantage to sailing around sea is you get plenty of thunderstorms.

I have hove to on every boat checkmout I have ever done, always in benign checkout weather. Always with mixed results.

I have hove to in my boat in benign conditions.

I have taken the opportunity to practice in thunderstorms on my boat. A better sailor than I may be able to make her settle but in mixed seas and 40 knots she will not settle and will eventually head off.

I am becoming more convinced that the majority of boats, the majority of time will be best served with a drogue system off the stern.

However, individual boats, individual sailors and individual paramets (storm, proximity to shore or hazard, etc.) means that a variety options needs to be considered.

[HappySeagull]

..Boatman pretty much hit it on the nail...the large masts in junks are effective sails.A junk will need more speed and more helm to surmount them in yer typical heave to situation-whatever that is!The furled junks sail in her lifts s also sizeable and acts as a sail too.
Marconi rigs have windage too but I'd consider it to be closer to being over the CLR and so,less effective in the equation.
I can't see much difference in those hulls, really.except one has her more- vulnerable rudder further aft and better for steering some say... I'm thinking,they will both pay off to a reach of their own accord until you gather way to point higher again, especially given large mast windage.Balancing speed (required with the xtra windage!)so that it's not so much as to tack the boat(with the tiller lashed to leeward?)has never worked for me in a junk.so I never lash the tiller except to control slop..I don't call it hove to-I call it "fore-reaching" and this is usually just letting the sail athwartships or more-and abandoning the tiller.There's no resistance to rolling though.Hauling+Stalling a much-furled sail to the foreandaft line hasn't been effective when I've tried it-(too small too stop rolling but any bigger and she'll sail too fast) but it could work in the right conditions,I suppose.
A junk fores'l that you can back like a jib might help to duplicate what you see in books but will need a two-sheeted system...It needn't be very big at all ,if your plans do not allow a proper multimasted junk....
The only boat I hove to that acted as though t'was from the pages of a book was a gaff rigged lifeboat with drop keel.

[Lagoon4us]

But in a F4 to F6 -- put the helm over, go below, set a radar watch zone, and make love. If you have a crew appropriate to that activity . . .[/QUOTE]

Most sensible thing iv'e seen posted yet!!!!!

[Bash]

some fin keel boats heave to better than others. My current boat, which has high freeboard and in-mast furling, can heave to under main alone if the main is furled small enough. No jib is needed because the bow's windage basically serves the function of a backed jib. I can usually control the stall angle of the boat by easing the traveler. She seems to heave to best with the traveler fully down.

People more accustomed to full-keelers claim that fin-keelers won't heave to because they point too high, and will end up tacking. That's an easy "problem" to fix with a traveler.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Caveat: I'm not necessarily arguing with Boatman. I have never hove-to in a F10. Sailed in a F10, but not hove to. I don't know whether it would work or not. Boatman is much more experienced in such situations than I am.

Lucky more like,,, but... so far so good. Not advocting any particular technique..
Each storm is as different as the various boats out there...
A 60-70kt SE'ly in the Biscay coming against a spring ebb over the shelf mounts the sea's fast and the predominant stream keeps them up there for the duration.. can't sail as the deep troughs block the wind and when you do get up there it knocks you flat... I took everything down lashed the tiller of my Longbow(31) and went below... 18hrs of chaos.
A December gale in the Biscay again... this time in a Hurley 22.. found she liked just the main with 2reefs and the tiller lashed just so and she'd sail till she feathered then fall off.. not quite beam on she'd catch again and do her little arc...
Sailed/tacked 6 days like that... below 95% of the time till driven close enough to Spain to make a 6hr run into Viviero... F9-10 reported sea's heights 9-11metres..
An Atlantic gale 100 miles W of Flores... Driving rain and 50+kt winds, visibility 100metres... had been hand steering solo since N of Bermuda, autohelm failure, I was to beat to care so dropped all sail and laid the Hunter 37 ahull... 4 days that one... the breakers take a bit of getting used to... sound really loud and scarey... but their all bark... the ones that whack you or toss you one rarely hears...
I've also run before under bare poles or with just a sniffter of jib...
As you can see... I do not have a prefered tactic... but a boat breaking up is not a major concern to me as I figure/feel the odds are quite high against...
the man however is often another matter...
it all depends on more than the boats shape...
one cannot always do what one would like...



But in a F4 to F6 -- put the helm over, go below, set a radar watch zone, and make love. If you have a crew appropriate to that activity . . .

But the above could definitely grow on me....

[svHyLyte]

Originally Posted by jobi

dont know if my boat qualifies as bulb keel? but she has a rather large bulb...photo dont show it much

Steeve--

You have a Scheel Keel. For more infomation see Scheel Keel - Google Search

[otherthan]

hey lots of good info from you guys, keep it up!!

I guess my fin keeler would best be sailed with a drogue and storm jib when things get really nasty?
any idea for DIY drogue?

[otherthan]

Originally Posted by svHyLyte

Steeve--

You have a Scheel Keel. For more infomation see Scheel Keel - Google Search

now that you mension it, I remember a guy telling me about my keel...he was saying its a race modification of the scheel design...he said the word scheel severald times but I tot he had elocution problems
ad to this that I am french, it simply never crossed my mind this could be a design

[Bash]

Originally Posted by svHyLyte

Steeve--

You have a Scheel Keel. For more infomation see Scheel Keel - Google Search

The Scheel is an early '60s precursor to bulb keels. Consider it an almost-but-not-quite bulb keel. The missing link.

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by jobi

hey lots of good info from you guys, keep it up!!

I guess my fin keeler would best be sailed with a drogue and storm jib when things get really nasty?
any idea for DIY drogue?

This has been RECOMMENDED to me. I have not tried it.

You take a five gallon bucket, and drill holes at zero and 180 just below the reinforced lip -- but with room for a large washer to help support the strain. then you tie a line through the two holes. Make it long enough to hang over the side of the bucket.

You can still use it as a bucket, but can put it behind you with a line tied to the rope in a storm.

I really don't know how well it would work and I certainly would want to test it before counting on it, but I am considering trying it. You should be able to do a series as well.

Personally I think water should be able to flow through it but what do I know (seriously -- I don't know anything much about this). But since buckets are cheap and I've had other big expenses, I'm tempted to try it.

On a slightly different topic I did make a 150' drag line for when I single hand. I tested it on my old boat -- 25', not 31, shoal keel (translation -- centerboard was jammed) and weighed half of what this boat weighs. I DID test that. I clipped it to the tiller and deployed it. It floated behind the boat beautifully. Then I yanked on it and held on as if I were in the water.

The boat hove itself to and stopped dead in the water. If I'd been on the other tack, I'm assuming it would have turned 180 degrees first, and then hove itself to. In any case, it made me very good about the drag line.

[hpeer]

Two thoughts,

About the bucket....I have seen it suggested to put a bucket off the bow to help keep the bow into the wind when hove to.

And....I have run a small riding sail up my back stay to help keep the bow into the wind.

What ever works for you.