Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 3 votes, 4.67 average. Display Modes
Old 09-01-2010, 21:20   #16
Senior Cruiser
 
osirissail's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: A real life Zombie from FL
Boat: Gulfstar 53 - Osiris
Posts: 5,416
Images: 2
Hunters are like the Chevrolets of sailboats, lots of them, economical and get you where you want to go whereas Gulfstars are like the Yugos - we don't talk about them too much.
__________________

__________________
osirissail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2010, 05:19   #17
Don't ask if you can't handle it
 
sailorboy1's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: On the boat somewhere
Boat: Hunter 410
Posts: 12,312
Quote:
Originally Posted by osirissail View Post
Hunters are like the Chevrolets of sailboats, lots of them, economical and get you where you want to go whereas Gulfstars are like the Yugos - we don't talk about them too much.

From your couple of replies I get the impression that you really don't like yours!
__________________

__________________
sailorboy1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2010, 07:40   #18
Senior Cruiser
 
S/V Antares's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Annapolis, Bahamas
Boat: 1983 Gulfstar 36
Posts: 1,249
Images: 1
Gulfstars

"Hunters are like the Chevrolets of sailboats, lots of them, economical and get you where you want to go whereas Gulfstars are like the Yugos - we don't talk about them too much."

Yogo .....nonsense! The GS 37 was a late 70's boat and pleasing to the eye. This was a fine boat that sailed as well or better than any similar boat for the time. Please remember that this was 30+ years ago. The 80's s was the start of a major change at gulfstar with the hiring of several people from a very well respected builder (Rybovitch) to dramaticly upgrade the interiors. Lazzara used new designers including Ted Hood for the newer designs. Do not confuse the older 44 Motorsailer Battle wagon with its sleek replacement in the 80's The raised pilothouse series were also very nice sailing boats with beautifull interiors and good quality hardware. Every boat I know from that era has some soft deck spots and other issues where someone did not do their maintence. If you need to point a few extra degrees buy J boat or a Swan. There is a 25 year old swan in the Yard with blisters the size of dinner plates. My current 83' GS36 Aux Sail (Not the old tub built in the early 70's) Points well with a full batten main and a fresh headsail. The layout is great for cruising as are most Gulfstars. Perhaps not a Mercedes..... But a Yugo? Hardly! I think you do not hear so much about them because the owners tend to hang on to them because they are one of the best kept secrets out their.
__________________
Will & Muffin
Lucy the dog

"Yes, well.. perhaps some more wine" (Julia Child)
S/V Antares is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2010, 12:52   #19
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 774
I agree with Don, there are definitely a large number of them out there. The majority of the hulls ended up as charter boats (before the cats) but now are found all over the place. We looked at a number of the 50 footers ourselves and liked most of what we saw except the galley layout, as the passageway to the aft stateroom passes through it and the cockpit well drops down too low into the passageway. This was a double whammy for us and we stopped looking at them.
__________________

Seahunter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2010, 22:06   #20
Senior Cruiser
 
osirissail's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: A real life Zombie from FL
Boat: Gulfstar 53 - Osiris
Posts: 5,416
Images: 2
The design of the Gulfstars was excellent for the purpose the boat was built for - coastal and island charters. The interiors make it a dream live-aboard boat. I have had mine for 20 years and lived on it for 16 years.
- - But the construction of the boat suffered severely from bad management and cheap quality control. There are a lot of other FRG boats built during the pre-1990's that are in the same category but few as bad as Gulfstars.
- - It it easy to fall in love with the interior accommodations and amount of living space per foot of boat. As in every market, you get what you pay for and the boat was a low end boat - very affordable and attractive.
- - Having worked on and repaired many different brands of FRG boats over 19 years, very few were as badly put together as the Gulfstar. There was nothing wrong with the design and engineering, what was wrong was the physical construction techniques used to make the boat.
- - The FRG layup is grossly underspec and suffers from massive blister and delamination problems. All of which is repairable, I know, because I rehulled my Gulfstar as did several other long term owners. I have personally seen two Gulfstar 50's collapse over their keels after gelcoat pealing.
- - Below are some photos of a pealed hull of a Gulfstar showing massive delamination and blisters that penetrate the complete thickness of the hull below the waterline. A pretty lady or gentleman can look very attractive until you peal off the outer "clothes" and look at what is underneath.
- - When in the market for an older used FRG boat - first decide what you are going to use the boat for. If it is local sailing/cruising with maybe a little Bahamas/Carib island hopping then almost anything that floats will work fine. But if you are thinking of doing some serious ocean sailing/cruising, go for the best blue water boat you can afford. There are different boats for different folks and for different purposes. Just don't fall in love with the interior and design without seriously investigating the sturdiness and sailing ability out in the oceans if that is where you want to go.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	OsirisBlisters_05.jpg
Views:	687
Size:	42.4 KB
ID:	12551   Click image for larger version

Name:	OsirisBlisters_10.jpg
Views:	658
Size:	68.5 KB
ID:	12552  

__________________
osirissail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2010, 01:20   #21
Registered User
 
sokkum's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Netherlands
Boat: Gulfstar 40cc
Posts: 26
We love our Gulfstar 40CC built in 1982 and we bought her in the early 90's. Sailed her across the Atlantic several times - did the Bahamas, Caribbean, ICW (no problem with 5'6"), Med, Baltic and North Sea as well. Got some nasty weather with wind gusting over 45 knots of wind for 30 hours on our way from Bermuda to the Acores, but we were very confident with her. She's very comfortable for long distance sailing due to her sleek hull, her weight (12 ton), secure cockpit and sufficient tankage (600 liters fresh water and 300 l. diesel|). Ok, does not point that high but she's rather fast when the wind blows. 24H coverage with favorable wind can exceed 160Nm, not too bad imo.
We bought her cutter rigged and with a triple reefed main and stormjib she's easy going in stormy weather. Some blisters yes, but with good maintenance, drying our regularly on the hard and a good bottom treatment she will last the next decades. Only part that ever broke: the stainless steel chain of our former Edson wheelsteering broke in a gust close to the coast of Portugal - no problem however with our Monitor selfsteering.
I use to own and sail Swedish and Dutch build boats and you can't compare the quality and finish the way the Gulfstar was build with a chartermarket in mind, but it's a very good design.
Our boat was never chartered, only private owned but we made some alterations to the underpowered sailplan which gave her extra speed.
It's a sturdy, honest, no nonsense boat that will gives you a lot of fun for your money.
__________________
sokkum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2010, 20:45   #22
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Southern California
Boat: Irwin 43
Posts: 37
Images: 3
My bet is that boats build in north america in this time period had the quaility characteristics of a lot of products. In the 1980's Japan was fully embraceing the quality principles of demming.......constant improvement. The rest of the wold did not get this stuff figured out until the 90's. During the 80's you could buy an american product and it would work great for a long time period, or fall apart very rapidly. This was true for cars.....and I suspect it is true for boats of the era.

So, if the gulfstar made it the first 25 years, it will most likely do fine the next 25 years.
__________________
TugTubPaul is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2010, 21:55   #23
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: San Francisco
Boat: Gulfstar 37, Wanderlust
Posts: 41
Images: 5
Send a message via Skype™ to sf-robert
We have owned a Gulfstar 37 aft cockpit for just over two years now and we have little to complain about.

She was just on the hard for bottom paint, thru-hull maintenance, cutlass bearing, and topside polish and wax. No blisters.

There are some stress cracks in the gelcoat, and if they get worse we'll take care of them. The yard manager advised they are not a safety issue. There is some moisture in a couple of places on the cored deck, but no soft spots.

I do know that our boat has had attentive owners in the past, and we plan to continue this into the future. Previous owners repowered her and the 4JH Yanmar is terrific. We've changed standing rigging, boom, autopilot, added a dodger, and more

We do need some wind to get sailing, but not as much as I thought would be required. We were definitely going hull speed over the last weekend in 19 to 20 knots of wind (one reef) - and didn't need that much wind to do so.

Have we put money into the boat - yes. Did we put money into our previous Dutch built tank (Contest 28 - wonderful boat) - yes.

We've done a coastal cruise from SF to Monterey and she sailed beautifully on the ocean. She's been to Mexico two or three times with previous owners.

I sometimes think about the "classic" bluewater boat, but I also remember that more time is spent at shore than on the water. Do you want a boat to safely get you from port to port - absolutely. But when you get to port you also want to relax and enjoy your time. Our boat does it for us - and something else will satisfy a different owner.

For what it's worth,
Robert
__________________
Robert
Gulfstar 37
San Francisco
sf-robert is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-01-2010, 20:26   #24
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 134
Don,

We are the second owners of our 78 Gulfstar 37 purchased 6 years ago. It took us about 4 years of looking at a lot of different manufactures boats to find this one in our 25+ years of sailing experience. I have to agree there is not much information out there about these boats. Some are good and some not so good. Most of the bad rap has come from the charter industry in the 70ís and early 80ís where yachts were abused hard with minimal maintenance all with a low quality and price. Gulfstar unfortunately also made several models that are labeled floating bath tubs that had poor aesthetics however I have a friend with one of these and is very happy with it. The PO did have the hull peeled a couple years prior to our purchase for blisters and had a West System Epoxy bottom applied. The yard said the blisters were minimal. Ours has the original gel coat topsides that are the envy of the yard every spring when waxed. If you take a look in the aft lockers where the underwear side of the hull can be seen easily, there defiantly is glass cloth and mat in the lay-up.

Several things I donít like are it weighs about twice the amount of similar sized boat of todayís standards. It does not point into the wind as good as the Catalina and J boat I race on. It does not come about very fast, I even backwind the jib to help and I hate the old Formica countertops.

Several things I really like are, when it blows at 20 knot winds, sometimes we tuck in a reef, and stay out to enjoy our afternoon sail while many others head to the dock. At 25 knots I will start to roll the jib a bit and think about a second reef in the main. In the right wind angle, a little more than close reach, it will comfortably cruise at 7 knots and keep up with the racers. I even can win a race or two a season on 10 miles or longer. I plan to replace that old Formica countertops. I can carry a lot of people during the race and carry a lot of beer. The quality of the original equipment is still considered good quality even 25+ years later. Heck even the bilge, water, shower pumps parts are readily available today and if I was to replace would cost over $100 each. The interior teak woodwork that gulfstars are noted for is excellent on ours. In fact the only surface that is not teak is the vinyl headliner and the crappy countertops. All cabin and cabinet doors fit extremely well, and there is no joint separation anywhere. See if your kitchen cabinets can say that after 30+ years.

Things I have changed to update and make things easier. Full batten main, deck mount traveler, rope clutches, ST winches on deck and mast, new running rigging, new electric head and fabbed a new FG epoxy holding tank to replace one rubber bladder tank with small but noticeable hole.

Over the years I have found that 1) if you start with a solid boat and 2) you keep it up and maintain it, you will probably have a good boat. If not it wonít matter whoísí name is on the side it will be less then a gem. I do know if there is a good GS on the market it wonít be there very long.

Happy Sailing.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	gulfstar 7b.jpg
Views:	2340
Size:	419.7 KB
ID:	12593  
__________________
gulfstar37 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-04-2010, 12:53   #25
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Cruising Greece, Turkey, Red Sea full time
Boat: Gulfstar, 54 Sailcruiser, Sybaris
Posts: 3
54 Sailcruiser

We have a Gulfstar 54 Sailcruiser from 1986 (hull #5) and love her.

I am amazed to hear that Gulfstars are considered "the lower end" by some, but it can not possibly have been relevant for all models and years.

The 54 was built using only the very best parts and material available at the time, much of which is better than what can be found on new modern boats today. Everything was over-dimensioned to last, for quality, and for comfort. The best Bomar hatches, the best Barent winches, the best electronic equipment (although all that has now been changed as GPS, AIS etc. has been developed), the best Hood in-mast furling, the best Vaccuflush heads, etc. the list is long.

I can agree that it seems as if the hulls were lacking in manual workmanship, but one has to remember that polyester, gelcoat, and core technology was still being developed and improved at the time. We have blisters to fix each time we do a haul out but that is a small price to pay for all the luxury, safety, comfort, and style we get in return.

There is no shoddy workmanship in the interior however. The woodwork is like a big top-quality furniture, and the layout is great.

She sails well in stronger winds but is sluggish in lesser winds, but then choosing a sailing boat is all about compromises.

Cheers,
Per
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	gulfstar colour.jpg
Views:	769
Size:	20.7 KB
ID:	15597  
__________________
sybaris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-04-2010, 08:48   #26
Registered User
 
Richard Jordan's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Fort Lauderdale, Florida, USA
Posts: 317
My impression is that there were three eras of Gulfstar. Vince Lazzara was really one of the forerunners of fiberglass construction and a legendary designer. He knew what he was doing and specifically crafted his yachts to maximize earning potential.

In the first era during the early 1970's, Gulfstar built inexpensive, roomy motorsailors. These had generally a lower quality construction. Some of these molds even doubled as powerboats! If you wanted a sailboat, they would have a different superstructure and step a mast, but the hull would be identical. When people desparage Gulfstar quality and performance, they refer to this first era.

In the second era, Gulfstar built the opposite - high quality, performance sailboats. They used the finest techniques and skillful design. They are classic sailboats with modern underbodies and average beam. These do not have the luxurious accommodations of the first group but very modern layouts. The interior joinerywork is outstanding. These Gulfstars are really another animal than the early motorsailors.

In the last era, the Lazzara sons took over and switched over to powerboats. Soon, Viking Yachts purchased the assets of the company in 1990.

It is a shame there is not better documentation of these fine yachts. Even the early ones have a following. They have extradinary accommodations and are great liveaboards despite the quality and performance questions.
__________________
Richard Jordan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-04-2010, 09:28   #27
jzk
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 639
It is hard to talk about Gulfstar without mentioning the model as there really is quite a range. Some of the sailboats are really just the motor boats with a mast.

The Gulfstar 60, however, is nothing short of spectacular. Fast, light and a reasonable draft. It is a sailing machine.
__________________
jzk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-04-2010, 17:44   #28
Don't ask if you can't handle it
 
sailorboy1's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: On the boat somewhere
Boat: Hunter 410
Posts: 12,312
Quote:
Originally Posted by jordanship View Post
My impression is that there were three eras of Gulfstar. Vince Lazzara was really one of the forerunners of fiberglass construction and a legendary designer. He knew what he was doing and specifically crafted his yachts to maximize earning potential.

In the first era during the early 1970's, Gulfstar built inexpensive, roomy motorsailors. These had generally a lower quality construction. Some of these molds even doubled as powerboats! If you wanted a sailboat, they would have a different superstructure and step a mast, but the hull would be identical. When people desparage Gulfstar quality and performance, they refer to this first era.

In the second era, Gulfstar built the opposite - high quality, performance sailboats. They used the finest techniques and skillful design. They are classic sailboats with modern underbodies and average beam. These do not have the luxurious accommodations of the first group but very modern layouts. The interior joinerywork is outstanding. These Gulfstars are really another animal than the early motorsailors.

In the last era, the Lazzara sons took over and switched over to powerboats. Soon, Viking Yachts purchased the assets of the company in 1990.

It is a shame there is not better documentation of these fine yachts. Even the early ones have a following. They have extradinary accommodations and are great liveaboards despite the quality and performance questions.
But then isn't this bascally what you posted on-line as a review of a GS44 about your listing in FL? Not saying it isn't ture, justb that the info is so lacking it is hard to verify.
__________________
sailorboy1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-04-2010, 07:53   #29
Registered User
 
Richard Jordan's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Fort Lauderdale, Florida, USA
Posts: 317
Thanks, I really appreciate feedback. My (poorly written) reviews are still works in progress. I have been trying to write a few here and there on boats I come across. I have been especially disappointed with the information out there on Gulfstars, so I put some effort into cataloging my opinions of these. I have started ones on the 44, 47, 50, and 60. My information is based on talking to fellow brokers, friends, owners, and the Gulfstars I have seen. I am generalizing my impressions outside of any specific boats out there and keeping it all anonymous. The best peer reviewed written resource I have found about Gulfstars is a review of the 50 Gulfstar in a book called "The Used Boat Notebook." Some of the book is available online at: Used Boat Notebook: From the Pages ... - Google Books

To explain better, the Gulfstar Sailmaster series is what I am talking about in the first era. It is not completely a time era as these were produced past the early 1970's. These boats are beamy, shoal, and have short rigs. They are not the best performing boats and have a reputation for leaky decks. Some do not have a solid radii of glass around deck hardware, so after now 30 years might have soggy balsa core. Sailboats of the "second era" are the opposite. They have normal underbodies and tall rigs which moderate beam. You lose the roomy accommodations but pick up performance. Like Jzk says, there is a wide variation in the design philosophy and construction of Gulfstars.

The construction from all reports increased in quality the later the build year until the last years. This is an area I am still researching. For instance, I have conflicting reports of lead or iron/concrete ballast. Anybody know what boats or eras used which?
__________________
Professional Yacht Broker per FTC 16 CFR Part 255
President of Cruisers Forum Sponsoring Vendor Jordan Yacht & Ship Co.
Richard Jordan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-04-2010, 15:07   #30
Senior Cruiser
 
osirissail's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: A real life Zombie from FL
Boat: Gulfstar 53 - Osiris
Posts: 5,416
Images: 2
If the management and construction techniques and quality control changed in the 1980's that makes a world of difference. But the construction and quality control back in the 1970's bordered on criminal. I have friends who worked in the Gulstar factory back then and the stories of the owner and management complaining about how much resin was being used by the glassmen is factual. The hulls were resin starved and vertical keel sections built to less than 1/3rd of the nominal thickness for a particular boat size. I have witnessed a Gulfstar 50 collapse its keel up into the main hull after blister removal. Deck edges were unfinished and resin starved enough that the through bolts had nothing to hold. The cabin top is a single mold with the walkways filled with balsa then a skin of FRG laid on top. Deck fitting were simply drilled through and bolted. After the balsa became waterlogged due to leaks the decks would collapse and spider crack at fittings. The mast holes in the cabin top with sawn with a jig saw and never finished or sealed allowing water to enter the balsa coring.
- - All of which is repairable but takes a lot of time and money. In all fairness back in the early 1970's mass production of sailboats was a new industry and little was known about resins and layup techniques. Glass to resin densities was unknown. Vacuum bagging and SCRIMP technology was decades away in the future. Chopper guns were new and it was O-J-T as to how to best use them. Quality took a back seat to speed of construction as the driving force to turn out boats as fast as humanly possible to meet the burgeoning demand.
- - Still the design was elegant and very livable/comfortable. Most if not all, the customers were coastal or weekend sailors using the boats for getaway or second cottage homes. Crossing oceans or around the world cruising was not even considered by the buyers. So the boats fit the needs of the buyers at that time and sold well. However, this is a different age and world from then.
- - So if you are in the market for a used boat, first decide where and how you are going to use it; how long you plan on keeping it; and then find the boat that has the proven reputation to fit those parameters.
- - As an aside I saw a brand new Dufour 50 Monhull on the rocks in Martinique with a splintered hull. The underwater fore hull was ripped open by the rocks. It was only about 1/4 inch thick laminate below the waterline for a 50 ft boat. Built like an eggshell - strong enough to hold an elephant in one direction and total disaster if the loads are in the wrong direction. So some boat builders are still trying to save time and money by building under spec even today.
- - If there are definite "breakpoints" in manufacture years between bad, good and great then it is worth finding where they are and searching out those boats made during the good or great years.
__________________

__________________
osirissail is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
gulfstar, paracelle

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
50 Gulfstar KIWI Monohull Sailboats 13 09-06-2013 07:37
Gulfstar traveler replacement Safari Tu Deck hardware: Rigging, Sails & Hoisting 4 14-01-2009 11:42
37 Gulfstar Prop svsamira Construction, Maintenance & Refit 0 06-08-2007 15:07
Gulfstar 44 vs 47 sailorgal Monohull Sailboats 3 23-11-2005 12:16
Gulfstar Sailmaster Carol Monohull Sailboats 4 28-11-2004 15:55



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:18.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.