Full keel vs fin keel for offshore?

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by Suijin

You should consult the polars for your boat (if they exist) to determine your best upwind wind angle in terms of VMG.

Jim called your 24 degree number unbelievable. I call it impossible. It's just not feasible in that boat with the sails filled. At one knot of boat speed you have virtually no apparent wind which you would need in spades to get that boat any higher than 30 degrees apparent.

jib sheeted hard main sheeted the same with traveller hard to windward . I just know what I was doing the boat must have never read the book that said it couldn't be done.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by newhaul

jib sheeted hard main sheeted the same with traveller hard to windward . I just know what I was doing the boat must have never read the book that said it couldn't be done.

That it?

Racers change battens, mast prebend, mast rake, and sails etc for every different race/venue for the best pointing

Then there's downhaul and mast rotation on some boats.......

Don't you think others haven't done as you suggest above but with new sails and full battens and maybe some prebend which would flatten the mainsail more then also add in some mast rake?

The boat's PHRF is still a very dismal 270.

[kmacdonald]

I'm about ready to bite my tongue off on this thread.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by kmacdonald

I'm about ready to bite my tongue off on this thread.

Yeah, maybe the OP should just buy a used beach cat and race. (his budget isn't quite enough for a new one) it's a great workout and his 6'2' frame would be very helpful trapped out on days like this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L92TfvlA3tY

[kmacdonald]

I'm happy with 35 degrees off the wind in my Capri.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by thomm225

That it?

Racers change battens, mast prebend, mast rake, and sails etc for every different race/venue for the best pointing

Then there's downhaul and mast rotation on some boats.......

Don't you think others haven't done as you suggest above but with new sails and full battens and maybe some prebend which would flatten the mainsail more then also add in some mast rake?

The boat's PHRF is still a very dismal 270.

phrf has little to do with point it is much more decided by overall speed on a given race course and as I said I don't race also just because it isn't recommended doesn't mean it can't be done.
The only race I would even feel a desire to enter is the race your house race here .
https://www.styc.org/race_info/RaceY...se/index.shtml

[boatman61]

Theres always folks who say a thing cant be done.. then damn if someone dont go n do it..

[kmacdonald]

Originally Posted by newhaul

phrf has little to do with point it is much more decided by overall speed on a given race course and as I said I don't race also just because it isn't recommended doesn't mean it can't be done.
The only race I would even feel a desire to enter is the race your house race here .
https://www.styc.org/race_info/RaceY...se/index.shtml

That ought a draw a competitive fleet.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

@Tidjian: No, the fin keel boat does not spin out. We were in some nasty seas on our way back from HI in the Yankee 30: USCG said 22 ft---they were pretty tall, and they were on the beam. There were a few problems: mid-hatch's caulking under the frame got eaten out by the waves, so the downhill side of the boat was soaking wet, and that's where we tried to sleep. I felt creeped out on the way to Hawaii, when the following waves had little breaking crests, and towered over us like a house. Fortunately, the boat reliably rose with each one. I quit looking at them to manage my anxiety. Truth.

@daletournier, we do not carry a liferaft because we were convinced by a seller of them that they are untrustworthy. That's the bottom line. They deteriorate in their canisters, they fail to inflate--only sometimes, but---- They are costly, and the costs of keeping them up to date are not insignificant; seasickness --well, you could pack some Stugeron into it; then there's the difficulty of boarding it from the water in strong weather*, and of staying inside it; and, also, the attitude that your boat is usually the better survival platform. Sure, we could die, but, hey, we're all gonna die sometime. Does it matter what our last thoughts are? Not much, I don't think.

As to fire, we are very careful with our propane. We live aboard full time, a wiring fire is unlikely, as Jim is on top of that, and the dinghy's in the water, or dangling from a halyard, easy to deploy.

Yes, this boat's double waterproof bulkheads forward, and the one aft, do lend comfort. None of our other boats had them. We have never used a liferaft, except for the one we borrowed for the Hawaii trip. It was my first trip offshore, and Jim borrowed it so I wouldn't worry. It was after that that the liferaft dog and pony show came to the yacht club. I would rather trust my life to our efforts to keep the big boat afloat than to one. Both of us are pretty good, Jim better than me, in an emergency.

*Loss of life in the '98 Sydney to Hobart, from not being able to re-enter liferaft after falling out of it when it rolled over.

Ann

On Edit: there's one other thing, it is about the servicing. We at this point have heard years' worth of horror stories of what can go wrong with the re-packing in third world countries; and it is ever more difficult to get permission to oversee the work yourself.

Thanks Ann.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by Suijin

It has everything to do with pointing, because a boat's performance upwind is largely a function of how high it can point. PHRF ratings are based on observed performance.

You said that when you were sailing at 24 degrees you were going 1 knot and with the tide. That pretty much invalidates your claim. You were basically drifting.

I know what I my boat was doing and I couldn't have drifted with the tide I was near nose on to a 20kt wind so that kinda negates drifting.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by newhaul

I know what I my boat was doing and I couldn't have drifted with the tide I was near nose on to a 20kt wind so that kinda negates drifting.

I'm afraid that I must disagree with the bolded statement above, for you have just told us that you had no instruments with which to measure anything, so how do you "know" what your boat was doing?

I'll bow out of the discussion now, for it appears that you are unwilling to bend in your estimation of performance, no matter what argument is presented.

Jim

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by thomm225

. . .

What you are probably failing to realize is that when you point too high you go really slow.

If you were sailing against 10-15 other islander 24's, you'd be going to the back of the pack trying to point that non-pointing boat to an angle of 24 degrees off the wind

Yes. It's called pinching.

Not only slow, but with tons of leeway, so the real tacking angle over ground is really wide.

A boat like that will reach optimum VMG to windward at about 40 degrees off the apparent wind. If it has newish laminate sails and a really clean bottom, in really flat water, maybe 35 -- 37. If the sails are dacron and old, more than 40 degrees.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Yes. It's called pinching.

Not only slow, but with tons of leeway, so the real tacking angle over ground is really wide.

A boat like that will reach optimum VMG to windward at about 40 degrees off the apparent wind. If it has newish laminate sails and a really clean bottom, in really flat water, maybe 35 -- 37. If the sails are dacron and old, more than 40 degrees.

I never said it was optimal I just said I did it . It seemed to be the best for the conditions I was in at that time.

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by Tidjian

So all debating aside I think the overall answer to the thread topic was, the keel doesn't matter as much as other factors.

Full keels are suggested for less experienced sailors and are more forgiving of mistakes. They travel slower and point more difficultly. They don't windward well but have good directional stability in weather. Some boats are better in this category than others and it's really a matter of preference.

Fin keels are the more modern style and are designed for speed. They're just as capable as full keels but are less forgiving. They can easily spin out if not controlled in weather and the rutters are more vulnerable. Although it's uncommon keels can be torn off or cause major issues if grounded or in a collision. Bolt on keels are less favorable since bolts tend to degrade over time.

More important factors than the style of keel is the design of the boat. Structural stability, age, condition, storage, cockpit size, displacement, etc.

Just thought I would reiterate what all has been argued in case anyone else stumbles in here for the same answers.

Well, from my own experiences with keels, which is not extensive but enough that I would say to that, yes and no.
There is something else mentioned only briefly here, which figures into my preferences, a pretty much unquantifiable thing called "sea-kindliness." To me it is a motion of the boat in response to the sea state, and it is an idiosyncratic thing, and I doubt everyone feels it the same. That's why I say it helps to get more experience in a variety of boats. My own boat has a motion that appeals to me quite a bit. Upwind, yes she is heeled over quite a bit, but her motion is very comfortable, no bobbing or bouncing or slamming. My buddy's boat, a Cheoy Lee 30, fairly similar hull but something about its shape and ballast that TO ME makes it feel like it bobs around more. It's less comfortable to me. My other friend's Catalina 27 feels like it responds to every nudge or slop making it more sea-sickness-prone for me.. but that is me. Others like it, I guess. I crewed on a Frers maxi that had a very flat bottom, thin fin keel and that thing slammed like crazy going upwind. Downwind it was fine and stable. My skinny hull, long keel, downwind likes to roll side to side sometimes, and that I confess is a bit annoying. (Admittedly some look at my boat, including my ol' rigger friend, and say "that thing is too tippy, it needs more ballast!") But I know and trust my boat's motion. And THAT is what makes one love their boat I think, the TRUST you have in it, along with the trust you have in yourself, both of which come with experience. That trust is what keeps you calm and relaxed even when the weather isn't, and it helps keep you from extreme fatigue and helps you continue to make wise decisions. I know that doesn't sound too scientific, and it isn't really quantifiable.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by newhaul

I never said it was optimal I just said I did it . It seemed to be the best for the conditions I was in at that time.

Yes, I see you mentioned one knot of boat speed further up. I think we all understand each other now.

Any boat can pinch up to almost any angle to the wind until the sails start to flap -- this doesn't mean anything. To get upwind faster, you have to maximize VMG -- velocity made good -- to windward. For every boat under any given sea and wind condition and sail combination, there is a certain angle to the wind where this value is at its maximum. If you go higher, boat speed and VMG to windward falls off sharply. That's because the airflow on the windward side of the sails starts to be disrupted and the sails stop producing lift. Leeway never sleeps, however, and so the boat will continue to be pushed sideways by drag, even if lift falls off because you've pinched up too high. So when you were sailing one knot (!) while pinched up to 25 degrees or whatever (I understand you don't have a wind instrument), you were probably sailing one knot or a half a knot anyway, sideways at the same time. So your real angle to where you were trying to get was wider than your angle to the wind and much wider than it would have been, had you been sailing lower but faster.

That's why when we talk about tacking angles, we don't talk so much about AWA -- it's not a meaningful performance number. Any boat can do a high AWA without speed -- it's called pinching. When we talk about upwind performance, we talk about tacking angle over ground -- so the angles you can sail with leeway factored out -- and about VMG to windward. A cruising boat which can sail a tacking angle of less than 100 degrees is pretty rare. Most full keel boats will need 110 or 120 degrees. To get to 100 degrees or better, you need to be sailing fast -- because speed kills leeway and gets you upwind faster -- and most fin keel boats will be using AWA of 32 to 38 degrees. The difference between 32 to 38 degrees AWA and half of a 100 degrees tack over ground is leeway -- the boat sliding sideways driven by the drag element of the forces acting on the sails.