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Old 07-12-2009, 19:04   #46
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Well, on pure looks, I would rank the Morris first. But that's subjective. S/V Jedi, have you ever been inside a Morris? Sailed on one?

I've had cocktails on an Oyster in the harbor. Nice boat. I've never sailed one.
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Old 07-12-2009, 22:31   #47
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Well Nick, if speed is all that matters, get a multihull.

We understand that your Sundeer is fast. A Ferrari is faster than a Rolls Royce. Every boat is a compromise, just like cars.
A multihull? what's that?

About a Sundeer being fast, that was not my point. My point is that the speed of a displacement (non planing) boat is determined by it's waterline length. So if you take a 42' boat and give it a 34' waterline, it is not going to be faster than a 34' boat with a 34' waterline.
This is the reason that all modern designs maximize the waterline length. All that stuff with huge overhangs was the result of racing rules and was just copied into non-racing designs because of lack of incentive to draw a specialized design for cruising. It was assumed that every yacht owner wanted to race the boat (which was normal 50 years ago). Today, there are still very few designs that target full time live aboards, name me some?!

p.s. the Sundeer 64 can sustain planing at 25 knots of wind or more so it's no use to compare with non planing designs other than hull speed. A catamaran doesn't plane, it hasn't enough surface area for that.

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Old 07-12-2009, 22:39   #48
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Well, on pure looks, I would rank the Morris first. But that's subjective. S/V Jedi, have you ever been inside a Morris? Sailed on one?
No, like I wrote I never heard of them before. They are completely unknown in the EU afaik. The only reason people in the EU know Sundeers etc. is because of the books and video's of Dashew. Catalina, Hunter and Island Packet are sold in the EU with a distribution channel but that's it. I can't think of more US brands that are sold new in the EU.
Sweden, UK, Holland, France and may be Germany are the big boat builders in the EU.

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Old 07-12-2009, 22:42   #49
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Most folks here know 1.34 times the square root of LWL.

I'll take a Morris 34, thank you, with its puny waterline. Try parking your Sundeer in a crowded anchorage on a Summer weekend or singlehanding it without electic winches, etc.

A good friend has a 72 ft. Group Finot custom that would sail your Sundeer under the horizon in a day. That still doesn't make it a better quality boat than a Morris or easier to maneuver in a crowded anchorage, plus it requires two full-time professional crew.

I don't believe you that folks in the EU don't know about Morris quality. That's like saying people in the U.S. don't know about the Bentley automobiles. Don't folks in the EU read Cruising World or Blue Water Cruising? The problem is, very few of the newer Morris boats come up for sale, and if they do they are sold privately and/or are outrageously expensive.
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Old 07-12-2009, 23:17   #50
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I know it might be hard to believe but they have cruising and sailing magazines in the EU too. Don't you read those in the US?

When you have plenty money in the EU you start looking at Swan, Hallberg Rassy, Contest, Oyster or van de Stad. Nobody dreams of Morris because nobody ever heard of them. I get the feeling that you think the US is special for yachts but you should know that even the word "yacht" is Dutch, there's no English word for it.

There are exceptions of course, like with everything but I can assure you that the talk at the bar in the yacht clubs is not about Morris.

I always liked US products, bought my cars in the US, and now have a US built boat. Of all our Dutch cruising friends (that we met in the Caribbean), I can only think of 2 or 3 with a US built boat and they either live(d) in the US or spent a lot of time there for work. In Holland, I know nobody with a US built boat, not a single one. And that's not because of all the Dutch built boats because there are many from the UK and France so there is an import market.

cheers,
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Old 08-12-2009, 00:16   #51
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Today, there are still very few designs that target full time live aboards, name me some?!
This one OverSeas 40 is the closest to a cruiser/liveaboard I could think of. At least it was designed for the purpose.

When it comes to boats, we are very conservative here in the EU. 20 years ago it was virtualy unheard of that a Swede would sail a boat that wasn't designed and built in Sweden with a few exceptions of danish boats, one or two brittish and ofcaurse the rare finnish ones for those who could afford to. Now the european market has opened up and we see lots of french and german designs. Strangely enough, no brittish.

For my own part I'd like to say that the world opened up when I started looking at the global market. There are so many great boats out there that are unheard of over here and I imagine it's the same on the other ide of the pond?

US boats (at least second hand) are usually a lot, LOT, cheaper than our native models and IMO you get a whole lot more for your $ buying a boat from "over there".

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Old 08-12-2009, 06:48   #52
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When you have plenty money in the EU you start looking at Swan, Hallberg Rassy, Contest, Oyster or van de Stad.

cheers,
Nick.
Then it's bad marketing by Morris, since their boats are every bit as good as the ones you list.

Part of the issue may be that when you get into the semi-custom and custom world, it's hard to keep tabs on a project from across the pond. It's easier to go with a local builder.
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Old 08-12-2009, 07:49   #53
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Hello everybody !

I would like to have some feed-back from experienced owners and sailors about these boats:

- Hallberg-Rassy
- Mallo
- Najad
- Regina
- Hanse
-Jeaneau
-Beneteau
-Bavaria

What is your impression about thes manufactures , after you bought any one of this boats?

Tks
Hi Boggie,
The question is a little like asking a BMW owner for a rating on cars. Or a Mercedes owner. We all kinda know what the owner is going to recommend.
I've scanned thro' what others have written and maybe suggest best to ignore the comments from those who've not owned a boat they comment upon.
Equally some comments from those who should know best do need correction - like Moody is a UK firm; German Freres is a v well respected designer; no one in Australia or NZ makes enough to be considered 'production boats'; and in past times there was more talk about Hanse buying Bavaria than the other way round.

There is sooooooooo much scuttlebut around sailing and guess thats why we usually love it. But back to your question.


I can comment on the Hanse (as I own one) and it is all good. I've built boats, fixed boats, raced boats, cruised boats, and owned 9 over a 20 year period. Today the Hanse fits my needs, my budget, and style, and above all is not a SLOW boat. She flies. Size for size it would leave all the listed ones for dead.

So good luck in choosing - and enjoy - but double check - the educated 'comments' before acting on them.

Cheers
JOHN
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Old 08-12-2009, 07:58   #54
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That seems to be very true. Maybe the dollar being so weak or the attitude in the US of a us being more of a "throw away society". Regardless, used European boats seem less expensive here then in Europe.

As an example: 1980 Skye 51 - Ketch Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

Another for under $100k: 1984 Cantieri Navali Ambrosi Scia 50 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com=

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hampus View Post

US boats (at least second hand) are usually a lot, LOT, cheaper than our native models and IMO you get a whole lot more for your $ buying a boat from "over there".

/Hampus
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Old 08-12-2009, 10:28   #55
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Hi Boggie,
The question is a little like asking a BMW owner for a rating on cars. Or a Mercedes owner. We all kinda know what the owner is going to recommend.
I've scanned thro' what others have written and maybe suggest best to ignore the comments from those who've not owned a boat they comment upon.
Equally some comments from those who should know best do need correction - like Moody is a UK firm; German Freres is a v well respected designer; no one in Australia or NZ makes enough to be considered 'production boats'; and in past times there was more talk about Hanse buying Bavaria than the other way round.

There is sooooooooo much scuttlebut around sailing and guess thats why we usually love it. But back to your question.


I can comment on the Hanse (as I own one) and it is all good. I've built boats, fixed boats, raced boats, cruised boats, and owned 9 over a 20 year period. Today the Hanse fits my needs, my budget, and style, and above all is not a SLOW boat. She flies. Size for size it would leave all the listed ones for dead.

So good luck in choosing - and enjoy - but double check - the educated 'comments' before acting on them.

Cheers
JOHN
Hello John,

I liked your point of view. About Hanse they aren´t expensive but seems to be good.

My intention with this forum is to know from these manufactures is to know how people felt pleased after buying any one of these models. I never found any american boat dealer here.

As I say for eg. Hanse has much better reputation here than Bavaria. At the moment i would like to buy my first boat and it could be a 35 or 40 ft, confortable, nice to handle, as you say flies in the water, but with a nice value of monney if one day i would like to sale it. To know the materials qualities and etc...

Swedish boats seems to be those that we don't lose to much monney after several years, i mean 10 years .

And a Hanse could be the same.

Tks
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Old 08-12-2009, 12:56   #56
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Every builder faces a series of compromises. Many are obvious - fast vs. cheap vs. roomy. One that is harder to see is longevity. A boat built for the charter business can be disposable in 10 years (five years of charter then sold for 50% of purchase price).

Some builders put a lot of effort (and cost) to build for long term maintainability. Not surprisingly, these boats tend to hold their value better since these are still going strong at 20 and 30 years. Some of the boats on your list from the US and Europe that have good reputations for maintainability are Hinckley, Shannon, Morris, Halberg Rassey, Swan, and Contest

One good "test question" I use to assess "maintainability" is to ask how an owner would go about replacing the engine and tanks. This will almost certainly happen by the boat's 20th birthday. In some boats, this can be accomplished easily with a screwdriver and a tackle attached to the boom in others you pretty much have to take a chainsaw to the interior. This is always a fun question to ask a sales guy at a boat show. It's not a "typical" question and many don't have the faintest idea.

The answer to this question will tell you the likely answer to other maintenence items that are harder to inspect. For example, can you refinish the interior or is the beautiful veneer too thin to sand? Is the wiring tinned to stop corrosion? Can the chain plates be inspected and/or replaced. etc.

It's very tempting for a builder to save money in this area (and pass on the savings to you) It's really no problem as long as you own the boat less than 10 years and accept that the used price will reflect the boat's shorter economic life.

Carl
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Old 09-12-2009, 11:29   #57
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And what about HUNTER Boats, as is has the self-tracking mail sail, did anyone experienced these boats?
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Old 10-12-2009, 13:30   #58
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All of this is of course a matter of taste, but personally I love the HR's, particularly the Frers ones, and I think they're worth the money. The Frers ones can point and get out of their own way...

(...)

And anyone who discounts European cruising yachts has never been on an Oyster. Wow. They are amazingly beautiful, and beautifully engineered and built....
Well, if I can afford and want something that points then I would go to and X-yachts, not a HR.

Been on both Oyster 46 and 72 just recently. Not much impressed, in or out. They are (?) well, bling?, glitzy?, showy? grand pianos. Sorry I do not know the English word - but I mean they are impressive, but not to someone who loves classic sailing boats (say things like an S&S, an Imoca, a Finn) . Oysters are more like huge, shiny, floating camper vans or something.

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Old 11-12-2009, 13:59   #59
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Well, if I can afford and want something that points then I would go to and X-yachts, not a HR.

Been on both Oyster 46 and 72 just recently. Not much impressed, in or out. They are (?) well, bling?, glitzy?, showy? grand pianos. Sorry I do not know the English word - but I mean they are impressive, but not to someone who loves classic sailing boats (say things like an S&S, an Imoca, a Finn) . Oysters are more like huge, shiny, floating camper vans or something.

b.
About X-Yachts do you know generally how do they behave in blue water cruising?
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Old 11-12-2009, 23:46   #60
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About X-Yachts do you know generally how do they behave in blue water cruising?
Pretty quick ;-) Seriously, they are too racy for cruising imo but they are strong. They have a steel frame connecting the keel with mast and chainplates/rigging.

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