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Old 25-06-2015, 07:41   #31
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Re: DIY Standing Rigging

Lots of great info here guys, I really appreciate all of the responses! I can't wait for my book to come in so I can really educate myself.


I read their process on the colligo website about the difference between Dux and Dyneema. I just can't believe their price for 7mm Dux is 4.12 per foot! That's crazy.
Colligo Dux 7 mm; CSS107, Price Per Foot - Colligo Marine - Synthetic Rigging
Some of you guys were saying you got it for as little as 2+/- dollars per foot? I am assuming they do a big discount if you buy enough to rig the whole boat?

I really don't see how Dux could ever be cheaper than steel rigging, when it is so much more expensive per foot, even when factoring in the expensive stalock fittings for wire rigging.

I am seriously considering the Dyneema/dead eye combo. Most of my sails are short and kept inside the bay, so I would be able to adjust them frequently.
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Old 25-06-2015, 20:05   #32
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Re: DIY Standing Rigging

I have posted this before, but I guess it has to go up again. Regular dyneema IS NOT SUTABLE for standing rigging. It has nothing to do with constructional stretch, or stretch under load, but with creep. Creep unlike stretch has to do with a change in leigth of the material under relatively light load applied over the course of months and years. Normal dyneema is subject to creep under the type of loads that standing rigging is subject to. Dynex Dux is simply heat annealed dyneema, but you can't just swap them out. It won't work and you will wind up with uncontrollable creep and a rig that can't be properly supported.

$4/foot for 7mm Dux sounds about right. You can probably get it cheaper if you shop it around, or buy in bulk (300-600'). But it's in the ballpark. The major savings is in not needing to buy fittings. My shrouds for instance have two sailmaker eyes instead of end fittings. So on average that would be $100 or so per shroud just in swagged fittings, more if I used Norseman.

But let's assume you need 3/16 wire or 7mm Dux for a 40' shroud...

...........Wire....Dux
Cost.....1.5/' ...$4/'
Fittings.$100....$6
Total.....$160....$166

Add in any cost to use a swag machine and the numbers reverse.


And no Dux will not last 20 years. Realistically you will get 8, if it's fully covered possibly more, but there is no test date yet that supports it lasting any longer.
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Old 25-06-2015, 21:00   #33
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Re: DIY Standing Rigging

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Originally Posted by roverhi View Post
Norseman or StaLoks are easy to do. Just follow the instructions and lightly lubricate the threads of the fittings with 'Never Seize' when making them up. Use the old wire as a pattern. Have done several boats with these fittings. The first one was a Westail with 24 total fittings for the rigging and another four for the lifelines. Sailed the boat to French Polynesia and back without a problem. Had never done a fitting before rigging that boat. Fist fitting took me a 1/2 hour so to do because I was nervous, took my turn, was extra careful, and took it apart and put it back together several times to be sure it had been done right. Once I got the hang of it and had more confidence, could whip one out in a few minutes. Riggee the whole boat in a long day.

If you cut the wire with a hack saw, use a hose clamps at the cut to keep the wire strands from unlaying. Like to use an angle grinder with a cutting blade to cut the wire as it gives a nice clean cut. Have also used Felco Cutters but take their wire size reccomendations with a grain of salt. Had to add pipe handle extenders to get leverage to cut 9/32" wire. Cutters were supposedly good to 5/16" or larger but didn't come with the gorilla needed to cut wire that large.
+1 staloks. Lubricate the threads to minimise galling and fill the void when assembling. Cut the wire with an angle grinder and cutting blade. Tape before cutting and ensure the cut is quick to avoid excessive heat transfer.

I'm very suspect of most compression swages these days. There are lots of 'riggers' around with little to no technical knowledge using old tired hydraulic swages. They have no quality control, no calibration logs and no way to reliably proof load.

I only do my own rigging.

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Old 25-06-2015, 21:32   #34
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Re: DIY Standing Rigging

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Originally Posted by leftbrainstuff View Post
+1 staloks. Lubricate the threads to minimise galling and fill the void when assembling. Cut the wire with an angle grinder and cutting blade. Tape before cutting and ensure the cut is quick to avoid excessive heat transfer.

I'm very suspect of most compression swages these days. There are lots of 'riggers' around with little to no technical knowledge using old tired hydraulic swages. They have no quality control, no calibration logs and no way to reliably proof load.

I only do my own rigging.

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Excuse me,, but WTF!! im sorry to say that Sr, but obviously you dont know what you talking about when you say that about swages and old hydraulic whatever ... The dyes to form a swage have a infinite life span unless you try to swage a hand grenade,, the hydraulic pump fail over time but have nothing to do with a quality swage or not, our dyes have thousands of swages done in their bodies and still looks like the first day, i dont know with what kind of riggers you deal in the past but if a rigger try to swage a 1/1.2 inch terminal in a 8 mm wire obviously is a moron, most riggers this days have a book to consult conversions from diferent swage terminals, is not the tooling or the swage the problem, is the operator ....

If a swage terminal is done wrong from the first place it fail in seconds under tensión, is really simple , is foolproof, you slide the wire inside of the terminal , you place the right dyes in the table and you compress the terminal , done.. In US like to swage once for terminal, we do doublé in our terminals, 360 degress to get a uniform compresión,, is by far the stronger metod to secure a wire end to a terminal fitting, it crack overtime and it rust , no doubt, but they have a lifespan like many things in a boat and they are cheap compared to other ways to finish wire ends, just a example, we do a complete rig overhaul in a Jongert 7 years agoo, the boat set sail around the world and a month ago he stop in our shop for a inspection and to say thank you for the good job, no cracks or problems anywhere, ready for another RTW with the same swage terminals....

Dont blame the riggers or the swage terminals, you have another options for sure , stalock, Dux, Rod, Carbon Etc.. all with the own set of problems to... even stalock fail ,,,
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Old 25-06-2015, 23:36   #35
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Re: DIY Standing Rigging

I haven't priced Dyneema for a couple of years, but it was as expensive as comparable stainless wire when I looked, so no real cost savings. It is strong and abrasion resistant. I doubt it will last 20 years because of UV degradation, but who knows- wire is suspect after 10-14 years also. So, do you really want to risk your mast with 20 year old Dyneema??

The other risk with Dyneema is that the splice must be the correct type or the splice/knot will pull through and let loose. The splice and knots that work with synthetic rope aren't hard to do- but do require using the approved method- otherwise the strands of rope don't grip each other and the knot/spice pulls right out.

Re: tightening standing rigging, Brian Toss and other riggers have told me just attach the line to turnbuckles, same as wire, and tighten 'er up. BTW, Toss likes Dyneenma and similar brand synthetics on traditionally rigged vessels, that always used rope - Particularly for halyards. Some race boats also starting are using it for standing rigging because of light weight aloft. However, cruising and week end boat owners often want something crew can grip with bare hands. Try grabbing and hanging or hauling on 1/8" or 1/4" Dyneema halyards. It's to small to grip! And 3/8" or 1/2" line is big enough to handle but way expensive.

I still like hi-mod fittings on both ends for standing rigging, and as others have mentioned, if cost is really important put a swage on top and save a few bucks.


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Old 26-06-2015, 00:02   #36
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Re: DIY Standing Rigging

If your looking for a good price on Dynex Dux 75 try here: Hampidjan Canada | Fishing Supplies | Spaniard’s Bay | Dynex Dux 75

Can't find it right now, but got a price last winter on 7mm Dux and 4mm dyneema at less than half the price of Colligo with shipping included.
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Old 26-06-2015, 00:16   #37
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Re: DIY Standing Rigging

Quoting Troy Bethel, from YachtDynamics:

"On swaged fittings , the fitting is cold formed around the wire where a very high pressure is applied to the fitting around the wire that it actually deforms or cold flows into the voids in the wire forming a mechanical bond .There are many failures associated with this process , the worst being worn out dies that are used to swage the fitting .These dies are extremely expensive as they are manufactured from a very high load alloy to very high tolerances . Riggers tend to overlook the slow degradation of the die as it is used and most will use the dies way past in spec tolerances .These dies have a life expectancy which should be logged , and only the very high end rigging companies will log each time the die is used and then retire or destroy the die when it reaches its limit .What usually happens is the die starts to open up at the join which causes the round hole to go oval . As this happens the edges of the join also start to splay outwards causing a major issue with the fitting ,which I will explain later .This oval die causes more cold flowing in one area of the fitting ,thinning it out which will lead to longitudinal cracking in the fitting after a time and catastrophic failure .Again when the edges splay outward on the oval die this causes the fitting to flow outwards to form two ear like protrusions on the swaged fittings , and the incompetent rigger will then turn the fitting 90 degrees in the die and swage it again which flattens out those ears and cold flows the fitting again in another direction ,causing even more damage .This also is cause for another failure when the metal cold flows more in one direction and pulls a few strands of the wire with it ,causing those strands to be loaded higher then the others ,driving one or more strands to early failure . When this happens the other strands need to take up the load the broken one had which pushes the next one into failure faster and so the show goes on ,leading to eventual "rig over the side syndrome "
These ears that are flattened out basically fold back down against the fitting causing a very small void under it which traps water . This water will have organisms in it which will use up all the oxygen and the water will stagnate becoming acidic and start crevice or pit corrosion leading to failure .This corrosion is usually not visible on the surface unless rust staining is seen as it is hidden under the little flap of metal ,so is usually only picked up when the rig falls over the side .
This fitting failure usually happens more to fittings swaged by small or one man rigging companies as they can't afford to change out dies or they are not logging the work load on the die and use it way past its life span . I'll point out this is not always the case and some riggers are well versed in the failures and do due diligence and replace tooling when needed .So one can see that the percentages of failures go up rapidly as the rigging gets to end of life."
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Old 26-06-2015, 05:37   #38
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Re: DIY Standing Rigging

I disagree with Troy in almost, is right when he say dies can worn over the lifespan, the rest is just SCIFI BS. sorry...
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Old 26-06-2015, 09:34   #39
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Re: DIY Standing Rigging

If the problem with Dyneema is UV would it be possibly to put some sort of barrier like a tube over it to prevent this?

I realise that it might not be ideal, but for the do it yourselfer on a budget it might be an option?

Spiral wrap could even be replaced if required, or glow in the dark braiding http://www.cableorganizer.com/uv-reactive/
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Old 26-06-2015, 13:12   #40
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Re: DIY Standing Rigging

If you oversize the dyneema by 1mm, the surface layer is degraded by UV but protects the inner rope.


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Old 26-06-2015, 13:38   #41
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Re: DIY Standing Rigging

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Originally Posted by Glenn.Brooks View Post
I still like hi-mod fittings on both ends for standing rigging, and as others have mentioned, if cost is really important put a swage on top and save a few bucks.
I didn't think hi-mod made mast fittings? Could you tell me how you did it with hi-mods on top?

I recently re-riggered with hi-mods below and swages at the mast. I wanted to go with Norseman because they offered fittings for both ends, but apparently they recently stopped production on the mast fittings. I could not source them.

Thanks
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Old 26-06-2015, 18:47   #42
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Re: DIY Standing Rigging

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Originally Posted by Moonos View Post
If the problem with Dyneema is UV would it be possibly to put some sort of barrier like a tube over it to prevent this?

I realise that it might not be ideal, but for the do it yourselfer on a budget it might be an option?

Spiral wrap could even be replaced if required, or glow in the dark braiding UV Reactive Sleeving, Heat Shrink Tubing, Spiral Wrap
It absolutely is possible, but it gets complicated.

First is the question if it is worth doing. Cover is free, and you could spend a lot of money on covers where it might just be cheaper to replace the line itself down the road.

Second is you have to use a splice that fully covers the core, while allowing the long tapered bury required for dyneema. There really isn't a good option here. The best I know of the cover is whipped into place, but it still leaves a section uncovered. Some work has been done with wrapping the last portion. I haven't seen any testing yet.

The other issue is time. There has been long term testing with uncovered Dux, so we know how it will work. To my knowledge none has been done yet with covered lines. It is likely being worked on... Most likely by John at Colligio.
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Old 27-06-2015, 05:50   #43
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Re: DIY Standing Rigging

Here are some step by step instructions for installing Stalok mechanical fittings. Other brands are very similar. The only special tool you need is a good quality hacksaw and good quality hacksaw blades.

Installing Sta-Lok ® Fittings
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Old 30-06-2015, 10:05   #44
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Re: DIY Standing Rigging

I DIY'd my standing rigging last year using Hayn Hi-Mod fittings on the lower ends. I had eyes swaged on the upper ends at RiggingOnly in Farihaven. The reasoning behind that was mostly cost; If I had done the Hayn Hi-Mod fittings up top, it would have added several hundred dollars to the cost and I have been told that the swaged uppers are a good compromise because they are 1. Higher up and subject to less corrosive salt water, and 2. The open end points down so there is less standing water collectiing in them and sitting.

I did seriously consider going with Dux but in the end the cost was pretty much a wash; what you save in terminal fitting costs you pretty much lose in the cost of the Dux. I like the idea of lightening up my rig, but I figured I would with a tried and true approach just to be safe (I am in no way saying that Dux is not a good way to go, but in the end, Hayn was a better fit for me).

I looked at all the standard DIY fittings (sta-lok, Norseman, and Hayn) and chose Hayn because of their nicely done crown ring that allows you to precisely align each strand of the 1x19 wire making a virtually foolproof setup. I sailed it last year with no issues and before I launched this season, I brought all the new rigging back down to RiggingOnly and had them open each one up and inspect. They gave it the thumbs up and told me that they were in good shape. One of the guys there also said that most people who take the time to DIY their own rigging are so terrified of the consequences of a failure that they make sure they do it right the first time by heavily researching how to do it correctly.

I wrote up a blog post on the build here:
Magic #16: That Was Easy! Adventures With Hayn Hi-Mod Compression Fittings
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Old 03-07-2015, 05:46   #45
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Re: DIY Standing Rigging

Vinnyvincent, check out "paragon sailing" on youtube, he does a great sagment on replacing his Westsail 42 rigging using Norseman fittings. Good close ups and explanation by the rigger through the procedure.
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