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Old 05-02-2016, 17:43   #1
Zeb
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Catalina Deep Defense Rudder System

Some trademarked thing listed on Catalina's new 5 series boats. Yet, can't find a thing about what it is. Anyone got a clue?

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Old 05-02-2016, 18:04   #2
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Re: Catalina Deep Defense Rudder System

Deep Defense Rudder System™-Superior construction with a stainless steel welded structure glassed to the rudder blade and off center seam for impact resistance

Tried Google?
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Old 05-02-2016, 18:16   #3
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Re: Catalina Deep Defense Rudder System

What's this "Google" you speak of?

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Old 05-02-2016, 18:25   #4
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Re: Catalina Deep Defense Rudder System

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeb View Post
What's this "Google" you speak of?

- Zeb
Just something to tickle your fancy!

Try this, too, from (gasp!) the Catalina Yachts website:

Catalina Closer Look
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Old 05-02-2016, 18:40   #5
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Re: Catalina Deep Defense Rudder System

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Old 06-02-2016, 09:29   #6
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Re: Catalina Deep Defense Rudder System

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Originally Posted by Stu Jackson View Post
Deep Defense Rudder System™-Superior construction with a stainless steel welded structure glassed to the rudder blade and off center seam for impact resistance

Tried Google?
Of course Stainless steel gets brittle, gets crevice corrosion, rots without access to air, and not a good metal for rudder use if encapsulated. Must be some chinese design.
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Old 06-02-2016, 10:01   #7
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Re: Catalina Deep Defense Rudder System

I've been a Catalina dealer for over 25 years. The rudders are built in house.
The s/s is american made and built. The s/s tree and post extend nearly 7/8ths down and the bottom edge is sacrificial in case of a hard grounding. All rudders are two piece and The seam is also offset and not on the center line of the rudder. The foam, if it can be called that, is a really heavy proprietary material that is poured in and expands. I've had samples of it and a hammer won't break it but it's really light.

The deep defense terminology reflects designer, Gerry Douglas, commitment to not sacrifice offshore performance to save weight or draft for the boat.

As a side note, all the new 5 series Catalina's have these other features and make special note of the first one. No one is building a watertight collision bulkhead with a crush resistant buoyancy chamber in the lower section (below the anchor locker) in a boat like this in the US.

Standard Features with the 5 Series
• Collision-safe forward Strike Zone™ bulkheads and impact absorbing chamber.
• Deep Defense™ rudder systems with stainless rudder posts.
• Stainless Steel T-Beam Mast Step™ system structure providing all the benefits of a deck-stepped mast and the strength of a keel-stepped mast.

• Secure Socket™ mast support/chainplate system.
• Knitted fabrics used for a stronger laminate and stiffer structure.
• Dramatically styled teak interiors and laminates finished with a satin varnish for durability and beauty.
• Five-part structural construction, insuring a stronger boat and more rigid structure.
Offshore hull to deck joint capped with a slotted toe rail.
Navigation AC/DC panel with additional circuits for added options, plus a built in amp draw meter to monitor electrical usage.
• Wide, clear weather decks designed with inboard shrouds for moving forward with ease, and a diamond non-skid pattern for safety and durability.
• Low profile cabin design for sleek appearance, great visibility forward and low windage.
• Comfortable, ergonomically correct cockpits with seats long enough to stretch out on.
• Lead keels for durability, and impact shock absorption for safety of the crew and structure.
• Oversized travelers, winches and lines for ease of sail handling in all conditions.
• Solid surface countertops. • Proprietary laminate cabin sole floor. • Innerspring mattress in all sleeping quarters. • Centralized Filter Lockers
• All Catalinas larger than 30 feet are built to robust standards: rated CE category A Ocean, NMMA Yacht Certified Program, and follow all applicable American Boat and Yacht Council Standards.
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Old 06-02-2016, 10:46   #8
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Re: Catalina Deep Defense Rudder System

I have to say, it sounds impressive.
But, and theres always a but, I'd have to see it to be convinced.
I'm not being sarcastic, just realistic, I've owned a Catalina or two in the past so I do like them and have worked on several others, I would have to say, compared to the competition they were usually more robust and offered more for the price point. (I'll stay out of naming those others since it seems brand loyalty seems to run strong on internet forums, I don't want this to go wildly in another direction)
In the past they were not usually built for extended offshore use but more coastal cruising/recreational use, I'm sure this was the design criteria since Catalina has always been very responsive to their customer base, is this a new direction to appeal to a broader market? If so, I applaud it since it means they are taking a risk that may or may not pay off, I'm sure there's an extra cost involved in offering the kind of construction your sighting here.
Whats the marketing plan in this and whats the thinking behind it? Is this a new direction or another step along the way?
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Old 06-02-2016, 11:03   #9
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Re: Catalina Deep Defense Rudder System

I have a lot of respect for Catalina rudders. I ordered a new rudder for my 20+ year old 34 Catalina before sailing down the west coast out of fear of crossing bars in Oregon with an old spade rudder on a coastal cruiser (too much time on internet forums). It turned out to be totally unnecessary. The old one was strongly built and dry. I sold it with no guilt.

We were recently looking at a 10 year old strongly constructed 43 foot French deck salon. Loved the boat. Pulled a panel in the aft cabin to have a look at the steering. I was confused and asked the broker to have a look and let me know if I was looking at the actual rudder shaft. It seemed unsupported on the top end and much smaller than the rudder shaft on my little boat. Scratched that one off my list...
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Old 06-02-2016, 11:08   #10
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Re: Catalina Deep Defense Rudder System

Quote:
Originally Posted by lifeofreilly57 View Post
snip>>>
In the past they were not usually built for extended offshore use but more coastal cruising/recreational use, I'm sure this was the design criteria since Catalina has always been very responsive to their customer base, is this a new direction to appeal to a broader market? If so, I applaud it since it means they are taking a risk that may or may not pay off, I'm sure there's an extra cost involved in offering the kind of construction your sighting here.
Whats the marketing plan in this and whats the thinking behind it? Is this a new direction or another step along the way?
I am the secretary of the C34 IA. The new C355 shares the same layout as our boats that were built from 1986 to around 2008. That said, they are vastly different in terms of how they are built. I agree mine is a coastal cruiser, but one of them just sailed across the Pacific: Latitude 38 - 'Lectronic Latitude

The skipper reported on our C34 forum that after all was said and done he didn't need to beef up his shrouds.

The new 5 Series boats have improved construction details that ours simply didn't have. Yacht Broker summed up what's available on Catalina Yacht's own website.

Yes, some of it's marketing since CY is now making a lot fewer different lengths of boats in this series than they did before, but they are built differently and I believe more strongly.

My 30 year old shaft and rudder are just fine and we sail the boat hard and a lot.
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Old 06-02-2016, 11:08   #11
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Re: Catalina Deep Defense Rudder System

Life of Reilly,
As I mentioned, I've sold catalina for over 25 years and I have personally owned 13 boats from 30-38' in all years. Truly the boats of old are not like the new ones. Even though there are dozens of older boats that have done serious passages Yachts and boats for sale - Catalina Yachts

When the downturn happened in 08, Catalina was on the verge of a transformation to stop building 10-12 different models and focus on just a few.
There are literally 1000's of models out so they were finding it harder and harder to compete with the used boats that were out there.

Gerry Douglas started designed the 44 (later called the 445) in 08-09 with the idea that a "production builder" could build just as good as the so called "better builders" and he seriously pulled it off. The list of things I put in the last post were things that were added to the boats. Even the hull to deck joint, forever a shoe box joint that was still internally fastened, was beefed up to a aluminum toe rail fully internal joint.

Catalina in the 5 series (which by the way one of the guys in my officed coined that name) is not like anything else they have ever built before. They are never going to compete with the higher end builders like Beneteau (which I was also a dealer for 19 years while a catalina dealer previously at another dealership and the boats are nothing like what they used to build).

So there are currently 4 cruising versions of the 5 series, 315-355-385-445 and there is a 275 sort of racer cruiser but has some neat features and there is a new 425 coming out this May. There have been over 115, 445's built and I'm happy to say we've sold about 8 of them and some others of resale.

I can say this honestly, that Catalina has passed up just about any other builder in the US as far as quality of materials, hardware and such (unless you're going to morris or hinckley and just want that level of boat and I'm glad there are people who do!). They have also become a bit semi custom, though they don't want to advertise that but they will make some nice changes in the boats as far as equipment and gear and I take advantage of that when I order a boat and get things like 12vt outlets in the cabins, teak grates in the heads and other items.

They are not cheap boats but they are great value boats in my mind, which is why I also own one.

They welcome factory visits and I've never had anyone go to the factory that was not impressed with what they saw.
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Old 06-02-2016, 11:27   #12
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Re: Catalina Deep Defense Rudder System

Quote:
Originally Posted by YachtBroker View Post
I've been a Catalina dealer for over 25 years. The rudders are built in house.
The s/s is american made and built. The s/s tree and post extend nearly 7/8ths down and the bottom edge is sacrificial in case of a hard grounding. All rudders are two piece and The seam is also offset and not on the center line of the rudder. The foam, if it can be called that, is a really heavy proprietary material that is poured in and expands. I've had samples of it and a hammer won't break it but it's really light.

The deep defense terminology reflects designer, Gerry Douglas, commitment to not sacrifice offshore performance to save weight or draft for the boat.

As a side note, all the new 5 series Catalina's have these other features and make special note of the first one. No one is building a watertight collision bulkhead with a crush resistant buoyancy chamber in the lower section (below the anchor locker) in a boat like this in the US.

Standard Features with the 5 Series
• Collision-safe forward Strike Zone™ bulkheads and impact absorbing chamber.
• Deep Defense™ rudder systems with stainless rudder posts.
• Stainless Steel T-Beam Mast Step™ system structure providing all the benefits of a deck-stepped mast and the strength of a keel-stepped mast.

• Secure Socket™ mast support/chainplate system.
• Knitted fabrics used for a stronger laminate and stiffer structure.
• Dramatically styled teak interiors and laminates finished with a satin varnish for durability and beauty.
• Five-part structural construction, insuring a stronger boat and more rigid structure.
• Offshore hull to deck joint capped with a slotted toe rail.
Navigation AC/DC panel with additional circuits for added options, plus a built in amp draw meter to monitor electrical usage.
• Wide, clear weather decks designed with inboard shrouds for moving forward with ease, and a diamond non-skid pattern for safety and durability.
• Low profile cabin design for sleek appearance, great visibility forward and low windage.
• Comfortable, ergonomically correct cockpits with seats long enough to stretch out on.
• Lead keels for durability, and impact shock absorption for safety of the crew and structure.
• Oversized travelers, winches and lines for ease of sail handling in all conditions.
• Solid surface countertops. • Proprietary laminate cabin sole floor. • Innerspring mattress in all sleeping quarters. • Centralized Filter Lockers
• All Catalinas larger than 30 feet are built to robust standards: rated CE category A Ocean, NMMA Yacht Certified Program, and follow all applicable American Boat and Yacht Council Standards.



I applaud any effort from builders to make better boats, but looking at the new features list I wonder what kind of new improvements and old stuff is really marketed in the website... I mean..

1. Deep defense rudder system? what's that? ss rudder stock?
2. Collision strike zone,, I must admit this is really good in any boat if is 100% watertight,, but anyway a nice feature.
3.Stainless T beam,, this is something probed in the past with similar solutions,, I think is a good idea but cant be compared with the strength of a keel stepped mast,,or the T beam make any diference? as a side note both metods have advantages and disadvantages, keel or deck stepped mast.
4.Secure socket chainplates ... Other builders use this system since long time ago, Beneteau, Jeaneau etc...

5.Knited fabrics? E glass Bi and trix... good to know what kind of FG they are using,, nice in my opinion.
6.Five part structural construction... To me they are doing something I want it no matter if they grid liner or not, FG the whole thing to the hull.. apart from that I don't see any diference with others production boat builders...
7.Offshore hull to deck joint, here nothing new since lots of builders are using the same construction practiques ..

8.Lead keels, yes please , always!!
9.The rest sounds good but not much any greater diference regarding other builders.
In any case I think they are taking a step or 2 fwd in pro of quality and sailing performance..
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Old 06-02-2016, 11:36   #13
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Re: Catalina Deep Defense Rudder System

We own a 1991 catalina 34 and its one of the best sailing and robust boats we have owned sail all great lakes .st lawerence gulf of st lawernce out to newfoundland and back to nova scotia in 20ft seas boat was as stout as ur full keel.d blue water boats anybody insulting catalinas just haven.t owned one or were ill prepared.
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Old 06-02-2016, 11:49   #14
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Re: Catalina Deep Defense Rudder System

Deep defense rudder system

The question is still open. What the toothpick does "Deep Defense" MEAN?? What's so Defensive about it??? Its just a load of hot bananas.
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Old 06-02-2016, 13:30   #15
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Re: Catalina Deep Defense Rudder System

Can't knock Catalina. They build decent, relatively inexpensive boats, and make improvements, in process and product, from time to time as the technology becomes available. That is why the company has existed for so long. I do not know their "Deep Defense Rudder System," but can say that it is probably an improvement without harm to the budget of the manufacturer or buyer. My own preference is for a rudder hung from and fully protected by the full keel with and stern of my vessel, but that is a what I like.
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