Bluewater Cruising Capability

[Blue Crab]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

Your first guess was correct - bought six (and unexpectedly got one free). Who am I to refuse?

The issue was more what I could fit in the dinghy with all the other shopping. I am lucky I don't take up much space as I was perched very precariously on top and it was a long ride back.

I may drop in again though before we leave to do a little more sampling .

As I've known from the start, you're too fast for me! I quickly deleted that post intending to move to a more general thread, so as not to gob this up further. But nooooooooo

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Disagreeing with me is fine, but why, whats your view and what is it based on ?



I live at 54 North , let me tell you a F10 on the continental EUropean shelf is far worse that a F10-F11 in the deep atlantic, Ive been in a F9-F10 in Biscay ( an accompanying boat foundered) and while I was only 50 miles from land , it was the worst beating ever. Ive sailed through storms in the Med, that were far worse then deep ocean storms.

Ive been in extreme situations, doing deliveries in standard production boats often under equipped, believe you me, its not the boat thats the issue. I seen perfectly capable boats lost ( with loss of life) due to poor seamanship and inadequate preparation and experience, Ive seen poorly maintained and supposedly "inadequate" production bioats taken through huge weather systems by extremely competent people ( and I learned shedloads from them).

The fact is the under experienced , constantly seek to find the "ultimate driving machine" , that there is a combination of feature that protects them from foulups or inexperience in the crew. Its a fools gold. Its like fools that buy Range Rovers and then get stuck in the nearest blizzard.

In particular Americans seem obsessed by metrics, yet the french ( and teh NZers) arguably the best sailors on teh planet have completely different ideas of what is "bluewater" ( whatever that means) Who should you listen to. ( I know) . Alternatively you could take the opinions of people say that sail in a very small proportion of world sailing and where significant numbers of them are below 40N!!. Just open your mind to best practice and experience elsewhere


( I recently met a circumnavigator in Las Palmas, who said after the whole trip around, the worst bit that virtually tore his boat up was off the Balearics, 5miles offshore)

Bluewater has nothing to do with storms in oceans.


Secondly there is never a "level playing field", the crew and the skipper are the major asset. Since humans arnt "level", you are making a purely hypothetical point.

It is futile to search for boat types that will save you ass in a storm, they dont exist. Its your ability you need to search for. Thats the nonsense of these bluewater debates. You can take a stock Beneteau out of the wrappers and sail across the Atlantic , I know, Talking about tankage etc, bulkheads just obscures the reality. ANy 35 footer + has adaqaute storage, adaquate water to cope, yes you might only have 2 litres a day, but now youre into a "comfort" debate. Thats different.

Of course there are maginal deisgns and sizes that can be considered boarding on the unsafe. But the solution isnt the things you mentioned, becuase in real life I can show you AVS of 110 to 140 successfully circumnavigating and going through storms. SO what does that prove. ( nor have your addressed the obvious nonsense of AVS calculations anyway)

Just dont put down a list, show us why your list is important to you

For me in extremem storms , I want a fast , hydrodynamically stable boat that is resistant to broaching , can handle being pushed occasionally in planing/surfing, with a rig that can be handled from the cockpit by a single /two tired crew, where the hatches dont leak and has a damm good diesel and diesel tankage. Barn door rudders, long keels etc are a marginal debate in this case. Talk of ultimate strenght of course is also nonsense , you dont hit things on a regular basis at sea and in my experience if you are unfortunate enough to do so , the circumstances are usually very unexpected and no boat can survive some of them.

The Range Rover of the seas doesn't exist, and as a former 5 x Range Rover owner I know why that is.

Dave

In real life, in say a university, we would never see freshman arguing stubbornly with a full professor with a Nobel nomination, but on the Internet, we get just that. I'm not saying that any particular conversation in this particular thread is exactly like that, and probably isn't like that, but we have had some threads which were really close to that analogy.

Here, in my own subjective opinion, we have an opinion from a really articulate person who is a real professional delivery captain with jillions of miles of real ocean experience. My suggestion to everyone is to really listen to this opinion and read this post over and over again. I personally have some decades of sailing experience and a fair bit of rough weather experience due to the challenging place I sail, but I would not presume to argue with Dave about things like this -- I'm a mere baby, compared to him, in these questions.

This line in particular:

"Its like fools that buy Range Rovers and then get stuck in the nearest blizzard."

That's rather harsh, but I think it really, really characterizes the whole spirit of this thread. A desire to choose a boat which will protect us from bad weather at sea, as if the problem can be solved by purchasing something. I think what Dave is saying -- if I may presume to interpret him -- is that such a boat does not exist, and the quest for such a boat is essentially pointless.

It is of little consequence that I agree with him -- my opinion is worth relatively little. But for what little it may be worth -- I really relate to what Dave says about resistance to broaching as being the really key quality (not AVS and other exotic and possibly meaningless metrics). This feeling of mine is based on a certain amount of experience in tough-ish weather, where running off is always the tactic, and where the tendency to broach or not makes all the difference in that tactic being safe and even fun, compared to being dangerous. Few sailors ever experience real survival storms, especially with weather forecasting and data distribution being what it is today. But I have been in F10 storms more than once, and whether or not your boat will run off stably, whether or not the rudder is large and efficient enough to not to tend to give up its grip, whether the boat is hydrodynamically balanced or not -- for me personally that is really the most important thing, in terms of "blue water" safety, in such conditions. So although it will sound like heresy to some here, I would rather be in a recent 40-ish foot Beneteau, in tough weather, than in something like a Contessa. I know I can sail the Bene actively when the going gets tough, whereas the much tougher Contessa is, on the other hand, so much smaller and slower. Of course I'd much, much rather be in my own boat, than either of those

[zeehag]

when i b ought my formosa i was advised they do not sail to weather---what boat does...
i was advised is a slow turd...isnt that-- she is a responsive heavy cruiser--even more so now the steering cable has been replaced...as for maneuverabiity, my full keeled brick has been known to spin on her keel length......

but, then, i am out here sailing her---what do i know......

[sneuman]

My argument is not between full and fin (they both have merits, IMHO) nor between production and ? (after all, don't nearly all of us sail "production" boats?).

I also don't believe it's all about the sailor. I am good friends with a delivery skipper who has seen 100x as many sea miles as me and there are boats he won't touch for a delivery. For him, it's more about the shape of the boat than any particular model or design - but then, cheap boats tend to go sour quicker than quality ones. That only makes sense.

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I really relate to what Dave says about resistance to broaching as being the really key quality (not AVS and other exotic and possibly meaningless metrics). This feeling of mine is based on a certain amount of experience in tough-ish weather, where running off is always the tactic, and where the tendency to broach or not makes all the difference in that tactic being safe and even fun, compared to being dangerous. Few sailors ever experience real survival storms, especially with weather forecasting and data distribution being what it is today. But I have been in F10 storms more than once, and whether or not your boat will run off stably, whether or not the rudder is large and efficient enough to not to tend to give up its grip, whether the boat is hydrodynamically balanced or not -- for me personally that is really the most important thing, in terms of "blue water" safety, in such conditions. So although it will sound like heresy to some here, I would rather be in a recent 40-ish foot Beneteau, in tough weather, than in something like a Contessa. I know I can sail the Bene actively when the going gets tough, whereas the much tougher Contessa is, on the other hand, so much smaller and slower. Of course I'd much, much rather be in my own boat, than either of those

And when you've been on the wheel of that Beneteau 36h without a break and there's none else to take it what do you do next?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by TeddyDiver

And when you've been on the wheel of that Beneteau 36h without a break and there's none else to take it what do you do next?

Why, heave to. Of course!

[Andrew Troup]

Much wisdom in what Dave wrote. I very much agree with the 'four wheel drive' analogy: I've seen SO many cases where possession of such a vehicle was sufficient to get people into trouble they had insufficient ability to get out of. In situations where a competent driver in a 2WD had no difficulty.We are turning into a culture shaped by the survival imperatives of business concerns. An increasing proportion of the human race see competence as being something embedded in technology. And increasingly they see this sort of competence as being, not just necessary, but sufficient.Lawyers and regulators complete the sorry picture.Dave also picked out the one instance of a behavioural ideal which, to my way of thinking, should be striven for in any serious vessel for bad weather offshore: ability to resist broaching. The single attribute which would help me sleep like a baby ahead of approaching vile weather, short-handed or solo, would be a boat which EVEN WITHOUT active management was unlikely to broach. This is a tall order, but I believe it is possible without surrendering sailing ability and liveability, and I have some ideas about ways to achieve this.

[Bash]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

In real life, in say a university, we would never see freshman arguing stubbornly with a full professor with a Nobel nomination, but on the Internet, we get just that. I'm not saying that any particular conversation in this particular thread is exactly like that, and probably isn't like that, but we have had some threads which were really close to that analogy.

I'm going to try to remember this as I sit through my office hours this afternoon. Surely there will be frosh dropping by.

[goboatingnow]

Dockhead your interpretation of my post is spot on and thanks for kind words, and don't at all make light of your own experiences, Us Northern latitude boys know its tough out there at times. I remember way back doing my ASA 104 in Tampa , the instructor looked up the chart of the British Isles and said jeepers I'd never sail up there your above Canada ) !!

Folks I hope I didn't come across to harsh. I just try and bite my teeth when I see a long keel argument or a person who puts aluminium on the list and funnily their profile says aluminium boat or owns a valient 42. That is just self justification.

All boats are major compromises a long keel sacrifices one thing for another. Aluminium is technically stronger then grp. But is your aluminium boat stronger and how do you know.

It is a certainty that you have to choose a set of features that's suit the 80 20 rule. Choosing features purely because they enhance safety requires ( a) technical proof and (b) what's the reality of ever needing it.

I continue my search for the perfect boat. I suspect ill be at it for a while !

Dave

[sneuman]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Dockhead your interpretation of my post is spot on and thanks for kind words, and don't at all make light of your own experiences, Us Northern latitude boys know its tough out there at times. I remember way back doing my ASA 104 in Tampa , the instructor looked up the chart of the British Isles and said jeepers I'd never sail up there your above Canada ) !!

Folks I hope I didn't come across to harsh. I just try and bite my teeth when I see a long keel argument or a person who puts aluminium on the list and funnily their profile says aluminium boat or owns a valient 42. That is just self justification.

All boats are major compromises a long keel sacrifices one thing for another. Aluminium is technically stronger then grp. But is your aluminium boat stronger and how do you know.

It is a certainty that you have to choose a set of features that's suit the 80 20 rule. Choosing features purely because they enhance safety requires ( a) technical proof and (b) what's the reality of ever needing it.

I continue my search for the perfect boat. I suspect ill be at it for a while !

Dave

Well, fair enough, but a Valiant 42 isn't "long keeled". And, of course, if someone is arguing a fin keel and owns a Beneteau 10R, that wouldn't be "self justification"? Just sayin'

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

Yes, you can certainly get horrific weather close to land, but what do you think then defines "blue water suitability" as opposed to "coastal cruising suitabilty" if it is not the ability to safely handle extreme conditions?

I hate the whole "bluewater" moniker , it's often just elitist crap to justify why someone spent zillions on a so called quality boat.

SEaworthy , sail through some horrible weather ( you know the one where half the crew get religion ) they are an eye opener.

Things that arnt important

1. The hull strength. , you rarely hit anything most production boats have sufficient

2. The keel length., its provide set of disadvantages and advantages

3. The AVS , have you been in a rollover or a 90+ knockdown. The results are nasty stuff detaches, people are inevitably injured and almost always the epirb gets triggered. It's not the survivabilty of the vessel ( it most always re-rights ) its the condition and mental state of the crew. I laugh when people talk about getting a boat that survives rollovers or pitch pole . Wrong focus.

Fin keel and spade rudder production boats in general make capable cruisers. people sometimes do not !!

Sure, experience and skill contributes to safety, but a safe boat is definitely not "fools' gold". A combination of good features helps to protect all of us, inexperienced or otherwise.

I've outlined my objection to a " product" based approach. firstly you or I can't determine "good features " is a particular aluminium boat better then grp , how do you know, there's no independent destructible testing.

What are " good features" mostly they are theorectical beliefs from owners based on what they purchased

Coupled with the desire to mentality " cover our ass" using technology , it's most certainly fools gold. Once a boat is sea capable , the rest is just argument by people with little real experience or a predilection to certain features.

[QUOTE ]

Sure, meeting one criteria in my list means little. And I am really interested in not of examples of what has been done without mishap, but what characteristics makes boats most suitable if extreme weather conditions occur (blue water or coastal if you feel blue water conditions are not the worst).[/QUOTE]

I've outlined my views , hydrodynamic stability, weather tightness , a good engine ,an easy handled rig. Most good fin and spades do well here. Many production boats have poor companionway doors. For example the jeaneauu 42 DS is a great sea boat , but it has the crappyist companion way doors., total rubbish.

Dave

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by sneuman

Well, fair enough, but a Valiant 42 isn't "long keeled". And, of course, if someone is arguing a fin keel and owns a Beneteau 10R, that wouldn't be "self justification"? Just sayin'

The vast majority of owners own fin keels. I currently don't own a Beneteau.

Dave

[Coops]

At the moment i have a 20' Coronet trailer sailer, at least 25 years old. This was built in New Zealand and was sailed over from there to here(Australia) solo, by the owner who lived on it for five years when he got here. Yes, he was probably lucky, yes he was obviously not bothered by the cramped accommodation, but does anyone have the right to say that he or the boat was not blue water capable? There were probably a few that did, but guess they were wrong.

Each to their own, someone used the term "ill advised" about taking some boats offshore earlier, but ill advised by whom? Themselves of course. Because i would not do it does not mean that others should not. It is total arrogance to say that "This is my opinion and therefore all others are wrong" which does seem to be the norm for some folks. Listen to others, if someone disagrees with you, so be it, shouting at, belittling or insulting them will not make them agree with you, just makes you look irrational.

Coops.

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

The vast majority of owners own fin keels. I currently don't own a Beneteau.

Dave

The vast majority of sail boats gather fouling in marinas..
Teddy

[carstenb]

I own a production boat - damn!
It has a fin keel - double damn!!
It has a spade rudder - triple damn!!!
It has dual helms - quadruple damn!!!!

need I go on?

It is a Jeanneau Sun FAst 40.3 I sail up here in what most would call high latitude. us locals really don't consider beaufort 7 as extreme. Nor is beaufort 8. when you hit beaufort 9 or above - we are all attention. the rest is just normal sailing - including in the summer.

So blue water capability...........

Most boats, when in the hands of a seasoned prof, will go blue water. For the rest of us who are not quite as experienced, we need (want) to safeguard ourselves with equipment.

There are some basics that any but the most foolhardy/adventuresome need in order to make a passage. Extreme sailors will say they are not necessary.

On another thread, I counted the number of production boats in this years ARC. 134 of them were production boats (beneteaus, jeanneau, Bavarias, X-Yachts etc). five Halberg Rasseys, 2 tayanas bunch of "others" including cats.

So apparently the guys (and gals for you feminists types) going cross the atlantic, feel that production boats are OK for blue water.

My contention is that most modern boats are perfectly capable. All will have some sort of bug that will need correction (companionway doors - f.eks.). Otherwise - it is up to the crew to get her there.

jes sayin'