blue water boat

[paco]

I have been reading a lot of threads on this forum after i signed up today , i don't want to ask you questions that have been asked before and will try here to type down as best as i can what my plans/needs are.

There are 4 boat builders that i'm looking at (it was 5 but after reading the thread on Bavaria i narrowed it down to 4 for the time being even though adding of other alternatives is still open)

1 Hallberg Rassy
2Island Packet
3Shannon
4Jeanneau( i'm not sure if compare Chevy's and Caddilacs here
,looked at the 40DS.

I would like to buy a boat that can safely sail around the mediterannean but has the potential to go from there(in 2 or 3 years) across the Atlantic ,sail around in the Caribbean for a few months and come back via Bermuda and the Azores( Jimmy Cornell in world cruising routes has this as a "10" month trip +/-)

-Safety is number 1 on my list !!
-I plan to spend between $120K and $130K U.S
-it would be for me and my wife in the first place.
-I have been in 38 to 41ft boats and must say that i like the living space even though there are maybe some of you who would argue that i don't need a boat that "big".
-Single hand sailing should be possible.
-I would like to have a boat not older then about 1990 or so.


I understand that this thread might call up more questions , for now this is where i am.

I have no problem with reactions that are critical of the above i would like to learn from the members here and hope that you take the time to guide me a little further in my search.

Thanks

[Jack Tar]

Perhaps I don't understand this post . You have a budget you have types of boats you like. All are capable of doing what you have in mind . So are you asking for other boats to consider or wich one of the four we like best . Or are you looking for someone with one of thoese boats to give you an evaluation of it . ??? I do wish you well with your goals and all of the boats you like are good performance cruisers . They may be a bit large for two people however if you do have a nice boat like one of those you will have no trouble finding friends to help you with the long passages .

[paco]

Hi Jack,


I was not sure if the Jeanneau would stand up in this list as far as quality , i see a lot of the 40DS for sale in Europe and the price differnce is big compared to the other 3 brands if you would by a boat about the same size .

So i would like to know where the trade of is ?, is it quality ,name a combination of the 2 etc..

I really like the open feeling of the Jeanneau 40DS with lots of windows , i thought that some of you might put the Jaennaeu in the same class as the Bavaria, Hunter , Catalina of which some poeple here and elsewhere wrote that they would not take it across the Atlantic

I get a feeling that the "mass" build boats are not that popular with some of the more experienced guys and like to understand better why this is , maybe i'm wrong on this but if so i like to know that i am.

And yes anybody that took the 40DS on some longer trips would be great to meet here.

It would be nice if somebody could argue which of these boats he/she would take for a trip like this , that would help me to narrow it down.

I like the style and lay out of all the 4 brands that i mentioned , i understand that there is lot more to think about but if you say that all 4 can do the trip then that is a good start

To answer your question; i think i like to stick with 1 of the 4 brands for now.

Thanks Jack.

Paco

[ssullivan]

Guys, I'm taking a stab at this one, since I have learned a great deal from this board and books detailing individual construction techniques are various yards.

Here are the basics, as have been pointed out to me on this board, and as I have read in books detailing construction processes:

1) You must buy the boat that best fits your cruising plan.

The plan includes a Caribbean stay, which is somewhat different than the rest of the trip's sailing conditions. In the Caribbean, if you want to hit the most out of the way places, and a number of cays in the Bahamas, you need a shallower draft. This would point you to the Island Packet. You can still hit plenty of places with a deeper draft, but it is a tradeoff to be aware of.

2) Safety is your greatest concern. As I have struggled through the same questions for many months now, I have read a great deal about different builders and their designs and processes. I would put the HR and the Shannon at the top of the list for safety. Both are well constructed and the attention to detail is great in their yards. The Island Packet has one feature that may make it a little less safe in my mind, and that is a reduced windward ability as compared to the Shannon and Hallberg Rassy. At times, the ability to claw your way off a lee shore could come in handy. It also helps to be able to quickly get to an upwind destination, given that foul weather may develop in the time it takes you to get there.

3) Jenneau in general - I owned an O'day that was an exact copy of a Jenneau 30 ft boat for coastal cruising. While it is an excellent boat, I would tend to choose any of the other three for pure "ruggedness", keeping in mind the choice of an Island packet means less ability to point it to windward with its full keel.

I would also attempt to take a little more time for this cruise?? It would seem to me that if you have the means, slow down and see the sights.

I hope this was a helpful start. I wanted to do some of the basic, "heavy lifting" for some of the other board members who are answering these questions frequently. I'm sure they will elaborate.

[Jack Tar]

I think your going to find that the production run boats do have less quality. They use cheaper fittings and thiner or less glass in the important places . They have to do this to make a profit. Now you go up a notch to true cruising boats and your going to find better fittings , better rigging, and thicker hulls in places that count. Glassed in bulkheads and keel steped masts. This isnt to say that a production boat cant cross an ocean. Many people have done it with them . You use what you can afford . A production boats chances of having some damage occur in a good storm are greater becuae they are less stout . More windows more chance of one being knocked out . Cabin top stepped mast more chance of compression damage to cabin top . The pluss side though is these boats cost less. Here is where the addage you get what you pay fore rings true .
It sounds like your doing your homework . I think you know the right answers you just want to hear some one else say it . Good luch with what ever you end up with . Oh BTW just for you point of interest I sail an Alberg .

[witchcraft]

Here is a site than help calculate many things about various boats. They list comfort motion ratings,capsize ratio, sail area to displacement among other things.
Kind of a cool tool when looking at two boats and wanting some sort of comparison.
Fair Winds
Witchcraft

[witchcraft]

Ok Here is the link.
//image-ination.com/sailcalc.html

Sorry it somehow did not show up in the previos post.

[Jeff H]

Given your cruising objectives the Hallberg Rassy would seem like the ideal choice within your list of options. Although many fo the early Jenneaus were used for a lot of distance voyaging, the later Jenneaus (that would be in the period that you are limiting yourself to) are generally too light duty for your projected sailing venues. With regards to the other two boats, you are planning to sail in venues that requires a wide range of sailing abilities and neither the Shannon or Island Packet makes sense for the combination of venues that you are proposing. That would only seem to suggest that the Hallberg Rassy as the right answer on your short list.

That said, and with all due respect you are looking at boats that represent choices spread far apart within wide cross section of the spectrum of possibilities that are out there. In other words, it would appear that you have not established your criteria and then sellected boats that meet that criteria as narrowly as you might wish to do. For example, if safety is your number 1 criteria then Jenneau or Island Packet should not be on your list.

Respectfully,
Jeff

[paco]

Thanks for all your replies , after reading the post here and doing some more reading it looks like the Hallberg Rassy people in Sweden know how to build boats.This is where i'm now ; HR 382 ,39 ,41 from the previous models or current 37 or 40 .

I understand that i again put up a wide range (at least in size) of boats on the forum but i'm getting there

Besides of cost can some of you maybe say some more about these models , any + or - on any of these.

Is it fair to say that the bigger more mass ( inertia) the better of you are if you get in rough wheater , any thoughts about single handing these 5 models.

I'm getting there ,

Thanks guys

[Jon D]

You might consider expanding your selection criteria. Seeing as you are in Europe there are a number of competitors to HR that you could look at. If you are looking for a Med/ world cruiser. Potentials include: Oyster, Moody, Camper Nicholson, Nijaad, Wauquiez, Hylas etc. Yahting World the UK publication did an interesting comparison about 2-3 months ago on 37 +- swedish cruisers. I also think how large you expect the crew to be combined with price will help determine the size / quality trade-off you might have to make. Of course if money is no object. Then it is just a question of how much boat do you want

[delmarrey]

Quote:
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"Is it fair to say that the bigger more mass ( inertia) the better of you are if you get in rough wheater , any thoughts about single handing these 5 models."
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It's true the more displacement/hull ratio the smoother the ride. But in a blow that can turn on you especially on inland waters.

As Jeff H always states, " 14,000 pounds per able bodied crew" should be your limit. It takes a lot of experience and/or hi-tech gear to handle much more than that, safely............................._/)

[seagypsywoman]

Here is a link to John Neil's site

Mahina Expeditions

He has a page on selecting a cruising boat and he uses a Halberg Rassy 46 for his offshore expeditions. Hope this helps.

Barbara

[Euro Cruiser]

In looking over this thread to date, several things just don't add up in my mind.

First, your price range varies greatly from the cost of a new H-R 37 or 40. I'm not sure you could buy a new H-R 34 for that sum, assuming it's properly fitted out and ready to cross an ocean (raft, Epirb, light-air sails and all the rest). Second, unlike one reply suggests, you aren't considering 'Med and world cruising'. Your plans are to do in-season sailing in temperate latitudes, and the longer runs are all across & downwind. I can appreciate 'safety' being a primary concern but IMO your current cruising plans just shouldn't be driven so principally, exclusively by ultimate conditions. And before someone jumps on this statement, I don't mean to suggest safety ISN'T important, just that you should place that issue in perspective and not be thinking survival conditions when selecting a boat. Seaworthiness? Yes. Storm sail handling? Yes. But gosh, don't overlook decent sailing ability in less than 10 kts of wind, and the vessel being comfy and suitable as a home for a long period of time - those are issues you will live with day in, day out.

Also and were I in your shoes, my #1 criterion - not mentioned by anyone else - would be that my boat either be grandfathered into the RCD or was certified under the RCD, as you plan to return to Europe and will one day face selling your boat. You will find it very difficult to find a Shannon that qualifies this way (altho' I did meet a Brit last week who managed to find a Shannon 38 that happened to be inside the EU at the right time); also, your Euro-based IP's in the marketplace are likely to be way above your price budget. In fact, in your shoes - and presumably you are holding a fistful of Euros rather than U.S. dollars - I'd even consider flying to America and buying a used high-quality boat in the American marketplace, then do the sailing you plan to do and work out how to sell the boat as your plans evolve, either by returning it to North America or working a Transfer of Residence Relief status with one of the EU Members that permits this...or broker it in Turkey, Croatia or Gib.

I'd like to second Jeff's notion that you have yet to adequately refine your needs, and encourage you to focus some more effort in that area. Barbara's referral to John Neal's site is an excellent one, altho' I find the content a bit dated these days and it's biased towards open-ended cruising. I also would challenge you on your size requirements as, e.g. in the Caribbean, you will find many Euro cruising sailors with boats in the 9-11M range and a 12+M boat really isn't necessary for either comfort or safety given your plans. And for that matter, excuse me for even mentioning length: I'd recommend you look for something in the 8-10 ton range and with a basic sloop sailplan plus an inner stay. Such a boat will cost less to cruise, be easy(ier) to handle, and - assuming its the right boat - offer more than enough sailing safety for your plans.

Good luck on the search!

Jack

[sv_makai]

As stated above looking into the US for a good quality used boat can save a lot of work and possibly some money upfront in getting a well found ready boat.

I would also recommend looking into the Bahamas and the Caribbean to find a used loaded boat. We have seen a lot of people who have bought and outfitted a boat only to start cruising and then give it up for one reason or another.

While we were in Bonaire a sailor died from a liver problem and his boat was moved to PLC, Venenzuela to sell. With the exception of not being new it was loaded, had been cruised and cared for very well, it met all of your critieria. It sold for about $70,000 US.

Possiblities abound, don't limit your search. We bought a new boat and had it delivered from SA. The builder includes everything needed to leave from SA except food and crew. It comes with everything as part of the package.

After getting it we spent money and time getting ready for long term cruising, solar, Radar, improved anchoring, dinghy & motor, food, better matteress, SSB radio, charts, computers, and on and on.

We will keep this boat for a long time as we are loving the cruising life.

[paco]

I,m happy i placed this post and understand that i have a lot more thinking and researching to do , a great forum with lots of knowledge!!

Thanks for all your input