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Old 06-01-2017, 05:57   #76
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Re: Beneteau oceanis 55

To the OP as I read this thread I see you are getting tons of input from different folks. Many of us have our own personal prejudices.

At this price point why not hire someone like Bob Perry who is a noted designer to help you compare and contrast the different boats you are looking at. He has no axe to grind, I have read one of his design books and my experience "talking on line", he is gent and not full of himself.

So am not associated with him and make no money off this suggestion
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Old 06-01-2017, 06:23   #77
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Re: Beneteau oceanis 55

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Originally Posted by K_V_B View Post
Taste is subjective. IKEA has a good feel for great design in my opinion. So liking something to IKEA to me sounds like a compliment. They have made good looking and practical furniture affordable, but at the expense of quality. When buying furniture I do go for the clean, modern look, but do search out better quality.
For a good clean interior with a nautical feel give me a pogo anytime...

You said it, "affordable, but at the expense of quality." IMO, that pretty much sums up the boats mentioned in this post. I think that's why the manufacturers who aren't pumping out hundreds, if not thousands, of boats every year appeal to me more.

Names such as Oyster, Passport, Hylas, Nauticat (of course), Outbound, etc. have seemed to distance themselves from the trendy "IKEA" design in favor of a more refined, higher quality, and safer bluewater product. This comes at the expense of, well, expense...but the old adage of "you get what you pay for" is very true.
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Old 06-01-2017, 06:33   #78
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Re: Beneteau oceanis 55

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Originally Posted by Raven Odyssey View Post
You said it, "affordable, but at the expense of quality." IMO, that pretty much sums up the boats mentioned in this post. I think that's why the manufacturers who aren't pumping out hundreds, if not thousands, of boats every year appeal to me more.

Names such as Oyster, Passport, Hylas, Nauticat (of course), Outbound, etc. have seemed to distance themselves from the trendy "IKEA" design in favor of a more refined, higher quality, and safer bluewater product. This comes at the expense of, well, expense...but the old adage of "you get what you pay for" is very true.


But If you look at more expensive boats you will find the same clean, modern looks, because that is what people who can afford boats like. I want my boat to reflect my style, so I rather have it look like my living room rather than an Irish Pub...
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Old 06-01-2017, 06:46   #79
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Re: Beneteau oceanis 55

I wouldn't equate quality or materials or worksmanship with design. Ikea can afford the world's best furniture designers, who turn out good looking and functional stuff that can be packaged small and assembled by anyone. To keep costs down the products use a lot of cheaper materials (soft woods, chipboard etc.) and are efficient to manufacture. I assume the big yacht manufacturers also have the best talent working for them. Of course there are quality differences between high-end yachts and mass produced ones, but I can't see a modern interior or exterior design being a sign of lower quality.

Wouldn't mind a big Nauticat myself
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Old 06-01-2017, 07:00   #80
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Re: Beneteau oceanis 55

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Originally Posted by K_V_B View Post
But If you look at more expensive boats you will find the same clean, modern looks, because that is what people who can afford boats like. I want my boat to reflect my style, so I rather have it look like my living room rather than an Irish Pub...


That is only partially correct. The Oyster 575, Passport 545, Nauticat 525, Hylas 46, and Outbound 46 all use a generous amount of REAL wood products are are very warm and inviting due to the richness of the products and finishes. The Jeanneau's, in particular, are much lighter, more modern looking and use much cheaper laminates throughout. The trendy heavy chines of the modern mass production boats are also absent in these 5 examples.

I suppose my style is different than your own. I want my boat to reflect my love for the sea and pay a little homage to nautical past. Why would I want it to look like my land-based living room, kitchen or bathroom. If I wanted that, I could have just kept the house and saved a truckload of money and headaches.
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Old 06-01-2017, 07:20   #81
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Beneteau oceanis 55

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Originally Posted by Sandibar View Post
I wouldn't equate quality or materials or worksmanship with design. Ikea can afford the world's best furniture designers, who turn out good looking and functional stuff that can be packaged small and assembled by anyone. To keep costs down the products use a lot of cheaper materials (soft woods, chipboard etc.) and are efficient to manufacture. I assume the big yacht manufacturers also have the best talent working for them. Of course there are quality differences between high-end yachts and mass produced ones, but I can't see a modern interior or exterior design being a sign of lower quality.

Wouldn't mind a big Nauticat myself

Yes, IKEA can certainly afford to employ the world's very best furniture designers. However, show me a piece of IKEA furniture after 30 years of heavy use. In all likelihood, the printed wood grain will have worn of the plastic it was printed on, the laminate will have peeled away from the particle board core, and the cam-lock fasteners will have loosened or stripped out of the composite altogether.

Now, show me a similar piece of furniture made out of traditional REAL products. There will probably be a rich patina on the surfaces, or the surfaces may have been restored to their original glory. The grain will have deepened through time due to the NATURAL oils in the wood. There will be charismatic dents, scratches and scars that time has issued as a remembrance. It's joinery, which is probably doweled, glued and screwed, is probably as tight as the day they were installed.

Sorry for the slightly hyperbolic comparison, but the comparison can be made in regard to this conversation. I guess my issues with modern designs are only partly aesthetic.

It seems I have gotten away from my original point on not finding the boats' "Swedish Dental Office Look" pleasing. I did not mean to turn it into a quality issue, which it needn't be.
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Old 06-01-2017, 08:09   #82
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Re: Beneteau oceanis 55

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Originally Posted by Van Der Beek View Post
It's not so much a conservative design as it is a well tested blue water design that is both practical and safe. Most "modern" designs are not suited for blue water because they're neither practical or safe. This also extents to the design of their hull, keel and rudder. The main reason they sell is basically because they are not sold to sailors as such, but to weekend cruisers who are poorly educated on what qualifies as a seaworthy design and also mostly hang around the docks and therefore want more space and a design that is more akin to their - as an example - kitchen at home.
...
Yes, I agree about the poorly educated but not in the same sense you are applying it. The hull design of most mass production boat is not different from the hull design of voyage boats made for sailing on high latitudes or to the one or solo racers designed to be sailed on autopilot on very nasty seas:













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Old 06-01-2017, 08:49   #83
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Re: Beneteau oceanis 55

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raven Odyssey View Post
You said it, "affordable, but at the expense of quality." IMO, that pretty much sums up the boats mentioned in this post. I think that's why the manufacturers who aren't pumping out hundreds, if not thousands, of boats every year appeal to me more.

Names such as Oyster, Passport, Hylas, Nauticat (of course), Outbound, etc. have seemed to distance themselves from the trendy "IKEA" design in favor of a more refined, higher quality, and safer bluewater product. This comes at the expense of, well, expense...but the old adage of "you get what you pay for" is very true.
From all you mention the only one that is selling yacht in a number that can be relevant in what regards average taste is Oyster (the others barely sell boats) and the interior of the new Oyster 625 is not different in style from the ones from jeanneau or Beneteau with the same size. First is the Oyster:

Beneteau 62:

The fact to be modern, or IKEA, as some like to call it, has nothing to do with quality in design or materials:

One of the best, in what regards quality of design, and note that this is only a 46ft sailboat:
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Old 06-01-2017, 09:03   #84
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Re: Beneteau oceanis 55



Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
The hull design of most mass production boat is not different from the hull design of voyage boats made for sailing on high latitudes or to the one or solo racers designed to be sailed on autopilot on very nasty seas:
If your intention was to use the Boreal as an example of a beamy boat (aft) you are visually being tricked, really not that beamy at all. Look more closely. As for the abominations depicted below those are racers and racers sacrifices sound hull design and safety for speed, which is OK in a racing environment where it's all about pushing the limits to gain more performance. Smaller beam less prone to broaching etc.

Edit.
Had the Boreal been that beamy it would have needed twin blade rudders. Which is another bad design for ocean cruising yachts for the obvious reason that there is greater propensity for them to be damaged, twisted or even broken off. They are even worse as they are not in line with the keel and therefore more vulnerable. In fact, with all the debris-strewn seas of today a skeg-hung rudder is more important than ever before imo.

But I digress now.
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Old 06-01-2017, 09:50   #85
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Re: Beneteau oceanis 55

Wasn't quick enough with edit can no longer add to my previous post.

Any design that is modern is timeless I think. It never goes out of style.

Example.




All these so called modern designs will often look rather dated within a few years time, something to think about when you buy a sailboat since it's a huge investment and you might wanna sell the boat further down the line.

The only thing that will be dated with these two beauties will be the electronics, and those tend to have a shelf life of just a few years anyway.
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Old 06-01-2017, 09:55   #86
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Beneteau oceanis 55

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
From all you mention the only one that is selling yacht in a number that can be relevant in what regards average taste is Oyster (the others barely sell boats) and the interior of the new Oyster 625 is not different in style from the ones from jeanneau or Beneteau with the same size. First is the Oyster:

Beneteau 62:

The fact to be modern, or IKEA, as some like to call it, has nothing to do with quality in design or materials:

One of the best, in what regards quality of design, and note that this is only a 46ft sailboat:


I disagree with you on almost every point (would you have it any other way?)...

First, you illustrate my point, partially, by disqualifying manufacturers because they are not mass produced. Perhaps the reason is more to the fact that a craftsman will require more time to produce his work, thus, output will be lower. By the way, the Oyster is my least favorite, aesthetically, than all of the other boats I mentioned.

And when did my comments ever reference popular taste? Am I not allowed personal preference as you, or the OP? Or do I need to disqualify non mass-produced boats because they do not fit the trendy fashion of today's modern euro-designs?

Further, comparing the fit and finish of an Oyster to a Jeanneau or Beneteau is like comparing a Timex to a Rolex. They both tell time, and may look similar, but the quality is in the details. I've had to opportunity to be aboard an Oyster and difference in craftsmanship is immense.

Again, I didn't want to turn the conversation into a quality issue, but rather keep it to a design preference; because, yes, even Swedish office furniture can be made well.
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Old 06-01-2017, 10:01   #87
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Re: Beneteau oceanis 55

Quote:
Originally Posted by Van Der Beek View Post




If your intention was to use the Boreal as an example of a beamy boat (aft) you are visually being tricked, really not that beamy at all. Look more closely. As for the abominations depicted below those are racers and racers sacrifices sound hull design and safety for speed, which is OK in a racing environment where it's all about pushing the limits to gain more performance. Smaller beam less prone to broaching etc.

Edit.
Had the Boreal been that beamy it would have needed twin blade rudders. ..
...
Yes the Boreal is a beamy boat with a big transom as most modern mass production cruisers:





Here you have an image of Boreal, as you can see it has allmost all the beam pulled back:

Here you have an image of the Jeanneau SO 449, with a similar hull but a bit less beamy:

Here you have the hull of the Bavaria Vision 46, a longer boat with a smaller beam than the Boreal:



The Boreal 44 has a beam of 4.30m, the Jeanneau SO 449 has a beam of 4.24m, the Bavaria Vision 46 has a beam of 4.19m. Are you sure that the Boreal 44 is not that beamy?

Other Voyage boats has the Garcia 45 (4.43m beam) or the Allures 44 have a similar hull and are even beamier than the Boreal 44 .



Regarding the rudder you have some reason there. Those chines will prevent the boat to sail over them (to a point) and the boat is not obviously designed to sail with a lot of heel but I would have prefer it with two rudders, like the Allures or the Garcia. It would offer a better control at high heel angles.


Regarding the two other boats that I posted they are not both racers, one is a solo racer the other a cruiser based on his hull design (with a swing keel) and regarding safety think again, those boats are designed to be sailed 95% on autopilot on very bad weather and if they were designed to be sailed by a crew they would be a lot less beamier.... much more difficult to sail solo (needing a crew) and impossible to be sailed with autopilot in really bad weather. They would also be faster....if sailed by the experienced crew that is needed for sailing them fast.
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Old 06-01-2017, 10:07   #88
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Re: Beneteau oceanis 55

Quote:
Originally Posted by Van Der Beek View Post
Wasn't quick enough with edit can no longer add to my previous post.

Any design that is modern is timeless I think. It never goes out of style.

Example.




All these so called modern designs will often look rather dated within a few years time, something to think about when you buy a sailboat since it's a huge investment and you might wanna sell the boat further down the line.

The only thing that will be dated with these two beauties will be the electronics, and those tend to have a shelf life of just a few years anyway.


100% Agree! For a moment, I forgot about Halberg Rassey and omitted them...
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Old 06-01-2017, 10:21   #89
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Re: Beneteau oceanis 55

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100% Agree! For a moment, I forgot about Halberg Rassey and omitted them...
Hallberg Rassy has a few as well.
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Old 06-01-2017, 10:28   #90
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Re: Beneteau oceanis 55

Quote:
Originally Posted by Van Der Beek View Post
Wasn't quick enough with edit can no longer add to my previous post.

Any design that is modern is timeless I think. It never goes out of style.

Example.




All these so called modern designs will often look rather dated within a few years time, something to think about when you buy a sailboat since it's a huge investment and you might wanna sell the boat further down the line.

The only thing that will be dated with these two beauties will be the electronics, and those tend to have a shelf life of just a few years anyway.
There is some confusing here. Not all crusing boats are beamy, even if beam gives them a lot more stability for the same size. To compensate and have the same space and stability of a beamy boat on a narrow boat you have to have a much bigger boat and that is more expensive.

From the boats you posted the one below is just an outdated design with outdated performances, the one above is just a very slightly outdated hull design, specially in the transom but with a modern keel and ruder, a boat with a good sailing performance, but very small interior space for the size, this one:


If that is your cup of tea and that is the size you want you should look at the Luffe 3.6, a very similar boat but with a more modern hull.


These are beautiful boats and great boats to sail but boats that beside the small interior, except downwind, sail always with great angles of heel. Not a problem if you like it but not the best to prepare a meal inside
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