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Old 07-01-2015, 18:43   #16
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Re: Bavaria or Hunter Bashing

OK if we can't stop the bashing we can just shut this down. Others have added some well thought out reasons why these brands get bashed and most of them make some sense. I have talked to several people over the years that lost their rigs and none of them were Hunters. Lets be fair about this because any of us can find crap to say about boat brands. There are other places you can post some bashing if you like but please lets keep this thread clean from bashing,
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Old 07-01-2015, 18:49   #17
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Re: Bavaria or Hunter Bashing

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Try sailing a multihull. You get plenty of "experts" telling you you can't sail in blue water, can't sail to windward, (oh how I love passing those guys sailing higher and faster than them) your boat has an uncomfortable motion (so they've heard), is going to break up or capsize any second...

And yes there are people who'll say this to your face. They'll even get into their dinghy and come over to tell you how they wouldn't want to be on your boat "in a blow."
I have to agree with Randy, I have never heard sailors bash other sailors boats, in fact its just the opposite. Multi hulls do have a different motion but who cares. The internet brings out a completely different side to people and they say stuff that normally they wouldn't but hey thats the venue and not much can be done by it. This forum is pretty tame compared to some out there.
If another cruiser bad mouthed my boat to my face I would write the guy off and avoid his company, life is too short.
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Old 07-01-2015, 19:03   #18
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Re: Bavaria or Hunter Bashing

Of course I don't waste time or breath arguing with them. But the point I was making: they do exist.
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Old 07-01-2015, 19:17   #19
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Re: Bavaria or Hunter Bashing

In the end it is probably an expert verse seagull thing.
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Old 07-01-2015, 19:30   #20
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Re: Bavaria or Hunter Bashing

Those who are out there actively cruising may not bash others choices for the simple fact that ALL boats need repairs and maintenance. No matter the brand or pedigree.

In other words, they acknowledge living in (fiber)glass-houses and thus don't throw stones?

Some would rather spend money fixing up a boat that will always have good perceived value, but the initially lower cost-of-entry a production boat affords makes a lot of (dollars &) sense too.
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Old 07-01-2015, 19:50   #21
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Re: Bavaria or Hunter Bashing

I really wanted to just sit and maybe learn something and to some extent maybe I have. I think the idea that some of it comes from the capitalist mindset and the poster that suggested that we are all tribal and like to differentiate ourselves plays a role. Smack and Neilpride figured it came from the composite rudder issue from Hunter and that built up steam. I also think there is something to the Rolex and Timex watch storey. Reminds me that during our recent crossing we were passed by an 83 ft Oyster flying a chute with a huge Rolex logo on it!
We have not heard anything about the Bavaria brand and how it got started? Remember there are several threads on CF where bashing is encouraged but I hope you all honor this one and don't bash
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Old 07-01-2015, 20:06   #22
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Re: Bavaria or Hunter Bashing

If you spend a lot of money on something that is most often a recreational type desire and things go wrong that cost you more money, you're likely to fall out of love pretty quickly.

If you were considering buying one brand but bought another and the first brand had catastrophic failures, you count your blessings, and maybe even pat yourself on the back (if your ego needs stroking, you brag).

If someone telly you that you paid too much for their boat and what a great deal they got, in a boastful way, and then their boat has problems, your ego may decide to remind them about their boastfulness.

IMHO, the best boat is the one that fits your personal criteria. We're all in the sailing community. There's plenty of wars out there. No need to look for a fight. Ego can get one to do many ugly things. Best to leave ego ashore and enjoy the sail. It's a much nicer ride.
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Old 08-01-2015, 00:50   #23
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Re: Bavaria or Hunter Bashing

Not bashing here but will tell my own experience. When I sold my first boat, US27, it was still a work in progress. Although she was an excellent sailor, very forgiving, tough and easy to sail but in her then condition she would not win any beauty and maintenance peagents. The guy who bought her was very handy and familiar with boats but mostly motorboats for fishing, etc. So he got her with an idea that he will save himself some rent money living aboard and will finish up TLC work as well. A few months later, he tells me that he is going to sell that boat to a friend since he found a Hunter 27 but for much more than he paid for my boat. His reason was that the Hunter was in really nice shape with nothing much to upgrade or fix. I told him that he will not enjoy sailing that Hunter and that he was making a mistake. Well, his own ideas prevailed of course and he went ahead with that sale and purchase. A month later I see him on the dock with that Hunter27. Yes, it was in nice condition, although 4 years older than my US27. First thing out of his mouth was: "Yeah man, you were right, after your boat, this Hunter sails like a pig and I've listed her on c-list for sale". He ended up getting a 32footer in need of TLC, I forget what brand. Now I understand that a 2014 Hunter is not the same as 1978 one but still, perceptions linger. Would any of us look forward to buying a new and imroved 2015 Yugo even if it was produced under new management and with new tooling?
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Old 08-01-2015, 01:33   #24
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Re: Bavaria or Hunter Bashing

Today I was working on a Catalina with a professional who has over 30 years of experience building, repairing and delivering boats. I asked him whether he preferred to have a Catalina or a Hunter. He said he preferred the Catalinas, as in his experience the Hunters were more lightly built. I then asked him if he would deliver a Hunter offshore. His response was sure, but he wouldn't push the boat as hard.

That pretty much sums up my own opinion of Hunter/Bavaria versus other boats. The Hunter/Bavaria may not be built as well as a Swan or Oyster, but it will get you there if you recognize it for what it is and treat it accordingly. The corollary is that a fool can wreck even an Oyster or a Swan.
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Old 08-01-2015, 01:57   #25
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Re: Bavaria or Hunter Bashing

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Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
I really wanted to just sit and maybe learn something and to some extent maybe I have. I think the idea that some of it comes from the capitalist mindset and the poster that suggested that we are all tribal and like to differentiate ourselves plays a role. Smack and Neilpride figured it came from the composite rudder issue from Hunter and that built up steam. I also think there is something to the Rolex and Timex watch storey. Reminds me that during our recent crossing we were passed by an 83 ft Oyster flying a chute with a huge Rolex logo on it!
We have not heard anything about the Bavaria brand and how it got started? Remember there are several threads on CF where bashing is encouraged but I hope you all honor this one and don't bash
First a disclaimer, I owned and sailed a BAvaria 33 Cruiser (2006) for 4 years. We sold it because we decided we wanted to go permanent crusiing and do an RTW. Therefore we wanted a bigger boat. During the 4 years we owned the boat (bought after 1 season from a german charter company), we had -0- problems with the boat, only regular maintenance. We sailed in fairly heavy weather and never felt nervous about the boat surviving.

In answer to the question : Why Bavaria bashing? a number of years ago (20?), Bavaria had some boats lose their keels (the Match series I believe). Bavaria stepped up to the plate - admitted they keel attachments were undersized, recalled the boats and fixed them.

OK - they screw up - but they did admit it and fix the problem.

This issue has affected their brand image ever since. Lots of boaters, when told you own a Bavaria say "Bavaria - arent' those are the boats the keels fall off?"

Other issues that seem to dominate are they are not "bluewater" boats. They are too flimsy, oil-can, etc etc when faced with heavy weather.

To me this illustrates a problem with the person making the comment not the boat. Bavaria (and ohter baot manufacturers) are generally very cognizant of the markets they want to serve.

Bavaria is not trying to serve the Bluewater or passagemaking High Latitude market. They are serving the weekend coastal cruising market. This market demands comfort and reasonable sailing characteristics. As someone once said "These boats are only out in 25 knot winds by accident"

Which is true.

So much of the bashing is due to :
1- The comment maker not understanding what the boat is designed for (much as bashing a Ferrari for being a poor car to cross the sahara in or a land rover for not being the fastest car off the line). Here the criticism is simply unwarrranted, due to the criticiser not knowing what he is talking about

2- In an effort to keep costs low, Bavaria and Hunter are pushing the envelope of design and boat building. Naturally this results in a number of "baby sicknesses" that other more conservative boat builders don't experience. An example here is the furling genua - I'm old enough to remember the great controversy over this. The sailing world was split in two, those that like the furlers and those that claimed they were tatamount to committing suicide.

Most boats today have furling genuas.

So back to my Bavaria 33. Would I sail that RTW? My answer is no. The hardware (remember this was built for charter) was simply not heavy duty enough for my taste.

carsten
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Old 08-01-2015, 02:17   #26
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Re: Bavaria or Hunter Bashing

All we know for sure is we have seen Hunters in Ancorages in the south pacific when we were down there !! Don't know if that means anything, but maybe if ya want to go then the boat ya make ready is the one to take maybe??
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Old 08-01-2015, 05:39   #27
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Re: Bavaria or Hunter Bashing

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First a disclaimer, I owned and sailed a BAvaria 33 Cruiser (2006) for 4 years. We sold it because we decided we wanted to go permanent crusiing and do an RTW. Therefore we wanted a bigger boat. During the 4 years we owned the boat (bought after 1 season from a german charter company), we had -0- problems with the boat, only regular maintenance. We sailed in fairly heavy weather and never felt nervous about the boat surviving.

In answer to the question : Why Bavaria bashing? a number of years ago (20?), Bavaria had some boats lose their keels (the Match series I believe). Bavaria stepped up to the plate - admitted they keel attachments were undersized, recalled the boats and fixed them.

OK - they screw up - but they did admit it and fix the problem.

This issue has affected their brand image ever since. Lots of boaters, when told you own a Bavaria say "Bavaria - arent' those are the boats the keels fall off?"

Other issues that seem to dominate are they are not "bluewater" boats. They are too flimsy, oil-can, etc etc when faced with heavy weather.

To me this illustrates a problem with the person making the comment not the boat. Bavaria (and ohter baot manufacturers) are generally very cognizant of the markets they want to serve.

Bavaria is not trying to serve the Bluewater or passagemaking High Latitude market. They are serving the weekend coastal cruising market. This market demands comfort and reasonable sailing characteristics. As someone once said "These boats are only out in 25 knot winds by accident"

Which is true.

So much of the bashing is due to :
1- The comment maker not understanding what the boat is designed for (much as bashing a Ferrari for being a poor car to cross the sahara in or a land rover for not being the fastest car off the line). Here the criticism is simply unwarrranted, due to the criticiser not knowing what he is talking about

2- In an effort to keep costs low, Bavaria and Hunter are pushing the envelope of design and boat building. Naturally this results in a number of "baby sicknesses" that other more conservative boat builders don't experience. An example here is the furling genua - I'm old enough to remember the great controversy over this. The sailing world was split in two, those that like the furlers and those that claimed they were tatamount to committing suicide.

Most boats today have furling genuas.

So back to my Bavaria 33. Would I sail that RTW? My answer is no. The hardware (remember this was built for charter) was simply not heavy duty enough for my taste.

carsten
Good post Carsten,
God do I remember the furler/hanks era. The dedicated bluewater sailors were so against furlers it was unreal, maybe if we had had the internet who knows where it would have gone, LOL. The first boat I took offshore I decided that I was going to put a furler as my primary sail on it and I got some less than complimentary comments about my choice, best decision I made as it was wonderful. It was a Harken and it had a habit of wanting to loose the retaining screws on the bottom and if lost that would really ruin your day. I found mine half way out one day on a passage and fortunately was able to tighten them up and then wrapped it in rigging tape. That was a bad design and later many sailors were talking about it. Harken changed the design but never got a bad rep over it, today with the internet maybe not so lucky.

We own a Moody and way back in the 70's they screwed up by building an under sized skeg that failed during an offshore passage and that info still floats around although generally the brand still has a good reputation. And as another poster has said we all are kept busy making repairs on our boats. We are rebedding our fixed side ports for the second time in 2 years and it is a hell of a job because you have to completely disassemble the windows which are a 2 piece affair both inside and outside and then remove the Lexan, clean all the aluminum extrusions and then start all over again. We figure that a conservative estimate of the time we have spent is 50 hours plus and we had professionals do the bedding of the Lexan only. This is one part of the boat that is poorly designed because I'm not the only one that has had to do this although it is not normal to have to redo them every couple of years.They are strong as hell but completely over kill for trade wind passage making and surface mounted Lexan would have been so easy to rebed.

I don't know why sailors are so opinionated on their personal choices and I don't know why they feel the need to bad mouth other peoples choices but for some reason we all do from time to time. There seems to be so much passion involved it is almost like a religion and there is a feeling some people are going to the wrong church.

I also think that as a group we don't take criticism very well.

From what I am reading it takes very little for a manufacturer of sailboats to get a less than stellar rep and when you add in the internet forums there is no limit on where this can go.

Carsten also brought up the point that in his mind he felt if he was going to do lots of offshore sailing he wanted a boat that was a bit beefier. Recognizing that any boat can be sailed offshore why can't sailors simply accept that the manufacturers are building boats for a market and that market and that size of boat is exactly the use Carsten was enjoying and he bought the perfect boat because from his experience it cost him very little on ownership costs(If we were so lucky)

I also liked the thought that both Hunter and Bavaria have been leaders in trying new and innovative ideas to make their products more affordable and have from time to time tripped on themselves. There seems to be truth here as well because many of their ideas are showing up on more upscale boats.

I'm not sure that there is another industry or sport or passion that eats its own like sail boaters and their opinions. Even when a builder steps up and takes credit for the screw up and makes restitution we still can't seem to forgive them. I also think that we need a builder to kick around and once that choice has been made it never wants to leave. I guess the lesson learned is, make your own personal choices on a boat that works for you and learn to live with all the opinions of others because that will never stop.

The really good news is that once you get away from the keyboard and get out cruising this will never be an issue as we all like each others boats.
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Old 08-01-2015, 05:48   #28
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Re: Bavaria or Hunter Bashing

Re furling genuas - we are just now getting past the great controversy of furling mainsails - there are still a lot of holdouts saying that taking a boat across an ocean with a furling main is committing suicide.

Most production boats today are built with a furling main as standard - you have to order a non-furling
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Old 08-01-2015, 05:56   #29
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Re: Bavaria or Hunter Bashing

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Re furling genuas - we are just now getting past the great controversy of furling mainsails - there are still a lot of holdouts saying that taking a boat across an ocean with a furling main is committing suicide.

Most production boats today are built with a furling main as standard - you have to order a non-furling
We had a real problem with a stuck furling main on a 44DS while I was at the helm last year as the wind rose. Fortunately we finally got it unstuck, but it was tense until we did. I would rather not have one on my boat as a result of that experience, although I do see their appeal.

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Old 08-01-2015, 06:05   #30
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Re: Bavaria or Hunter Bashing

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We had a real problem with a stuck furling main on a 44DS while I was at the helm last year as the wind rose. Fortunately we finally got it unstuck, but it was tense until we did. I would rather not have one on my boat as a result of that experience, although I do see their appeal.

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From one Albertan to another my wife insisted we have a furling main although I have always had a distaste for them. I'm the guy that had mainsails with roaches so large the sail had to pushed past the backstay when tacking in lighter air but today I sail with a furling main. She can operate it without waking me up and she never has to go on deck and she would not have it any other way. I hate it when sailing in lighter air and I have never seen it flying with anything that approaches a decent shape but we are both happy. She got what she wanted and I got what I wanted..a happy wife!
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