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Old 03-03-2012, 13:26   #46
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Re: Bad Market - Good Negotiation Strategies ?

Likewise i just sold my 32 Ft Tourissimo Cat it was 85% complete with complete ones bringing in 120k.

I advertised it for 30k and sold to a very lucky buyer for 15k.

WHY??? I wanted out, i didn't want to spend time or money on it so it's someone elses win.

Bargains are where you find them, YOU do not create anyone's particular circumstance.

I honestly doubt that any car, boat, house or plane on the secondhand market is sold for the listed price UNLESS it was an obvious fire-sale from the beginning.

Good negotiation strategies are just that, they are steps that formulate a plan.

DOJ's methodology is the answer to this thread in all it's eloquence... Cheers
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Old 03-03-2012, 13:30   #47
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Re: Bad Market - Good Negotiation Strategies ?

The problem is that in a down market like this the boat seller thinks he's being lowballed because he paid say $90,000 for the boat a few years ago. However the buyer is looking around and sees that today similar boats are selling for say $60,000, so he offers $50,000 thinking it's not a bad offer (17% off) while the seller is thinking that is 44% off. Big difference in perceptions. The housing market is having the same problem. Boatowners have to realize that the value of their boat has nothing to do with what they paid for it or how much money they put into it--the only relevant data is what similar boats are actually selling for.
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Old 03-03-2012, 13:44   #48
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Re: Bad Market - Good Negotiation Strategies ?

That's true and they have the choice to sell or hang on for a higher price or simply retain.

In the market we are looking at (440's) the privately owned boats are usually toys with huge mortgages on them, they are not necessary boats that mean much more than "get rid of it, the mortgage is killing us".

In this scenario they will sell for the mortgage value just to be clear of the debt. It could well be that their company has been paying the instalments not them.

I've noted three in the Med that fall into this category, the first indicator is that the VAT hasn't been paid and the second is they have been listed with a 'Charter company' although not chartered!

There are a thousand reason's why people sell their boats and in a falling market there is usually a pressing reason. I would never take advantage of another however the deal must realistically match the economy of the day.

What if we slip into another far worst RECESSION? The sellers that got 50% of their original buying price paid would look like geniuses relieved they unloaded!!!!

This is the gamble...... Cheers
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Old 03-03-2012, 14:09   #49
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Re: Bad Market - Good Negotiation Strategies ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by David M View Post
Some of the best deals come from people who suddenly have to sell now and don't have the time to have their boat listed by a broker for a year or however long it takes to get it sold for the highest price the market will bare.

So true. My cousin went around on his Camper & Nicholson 58 Cutter. It was extremely well maintained with a professional captain. African Queen of Zanzibar was sold in the high 200's, less than half the listed rates. My cousin was terminal with cancer and wanted out so his wife didn't have to deal with it.

Here is the link to the captain's site. (includes also his other boat positions)
African Queen World Cruise

To address the OP; you could enlist the services of a buyer's advocate. I was impressed with the low cost service of the folks at Mahina who can help locate a vessel to your needs and price.

As noted, there is a plethora of boats available - just find the right one. Consider that less than half of the wintered boats in our area hit the water last summer. If you look in the Great Lakes region, there is a perfect storm of unemployment and other factors to make a glut of boats. Most have never seen salt water and the season is weekends for 4 months per year. Most boaters stay home if the weather is challenging. Call marinas and see what is there or possibly take a road trip around the US shore of Lake Michigan, Huron and Erie. There are some boats with us at Torresens in Muskegon that I cry for when I see them abandoned. Many of these will have little fix-up compared to coastal boats. (some are basket casses!!)

Check out the Camper-Nicholson site on Yahoo. Owners list their Nicholson 35's there from time-to-time. Many of these are in really nice conditon and are good blue water cruisers.
campernicholson : This list will be a contact point for owners and admirers of Camper Nicholson yachts.

Good Hunting
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Old 03-03-2012, 14:12   #50
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Re: Bad Market - Good Negotiation Strategies ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kettlewell View Post
Boatowners have to realize that the value of their boat has nothing to do with what they paid for it or how much money they put into it--the only relevant data is what similar boats are actually selling for.
So true .

Actually, this applies to most things in a market economy. The market will decide what something is valued at. This price often has little to do with worth.
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Old 03-03-2012, 14:43   #51
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Re: Bad Market - Good Negotiation Strategies ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kettlewell View Post
The owners are usually more willing to deal than the brokers, because the broker earns his pay as a percentage of the selling price--it isn't in their interest to work with you to get the price down. Plus there is nothing unethical at all about taking a look at a boat before making an offer that is low. How are you supposed to know what the boat is worth unless you take a look? As I have said before I am not going to lowball someone just to fish for the lowest price, but I am going to assess what the boat is worth to me and make an offer around that number. Sometimes that would be what someone considers a "lowball" offer, but sometimes I might be paying close to asking price. Many, many boats are priced unrealistically. The owner and/or broker argues that it just (meaning five years ago) went through a major refit that cost $50,000 and therefore they are asking $50K more than most of the other boats on the market. That just doesn't make sense but you see it all the time.

Yeah....but there is another side to this coin. I personally saw a broker try to 'low ball' a seller because he had a bunch of over extended mortgages he was trying to sell and hadn't made a commission in a couple weeks. Brokers today love boats that aren't over extended....because then they can even help the buyer in the negotiation. So keep that in mind as well!
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Old 03-03-2012, 14:53   #52
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Re: Bad Market - Good Negotiation Strategies ?

Does anyone have insight on market conditions in Europe (Germany/Holland specifically) v. the U.S.? Are most boats advertised prices significantly higher than actual selling price? How do bargaining customs differ there from here?

Thanks for the interesting thread, lots of good info here!
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Old 03-03-2012, 15:13   #53
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Re: Bad Market - Good Negotiation Strategies ?

If you see 6 identical boats advertised at $100,000 that is not their value. The trouble is few people are keen to admit the price that the contracts were actually exchanged at. If one of the 6 sold the broker won't tell you it only actually fetched only $60,000 because that makes him look bad. I'm greatfull for the low ball offer I received because I actually wanted to get rid of the boat. It was the only genuine offer in 12 months and therefore it told me what the real market value was. I can't imagine the frustration of being a broker who is continually dealing with unrealistic vendors.
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Old 03-03-2012, 15:40   #54
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Re: Bad Market - Good Negotiation Strategies ?

Just a thought . . . it would be interesting to know how many hard bargainers" with little concern for wasting a broker's/seller's time have ever owned a retail business or worked as a commissioned salesman. My guess is zero to none since ,if they did, they would never treat another professional they way they, on occasion, have been treated themselves. The worst buyers in the worst markets are always those who think that everyone other than themselves is a crook, a cheat, or not worthy of respect. Once again, a hard bargainer can still be a gentleman and win.
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Old 03-03-2012, 15:43   #55
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Re: Bad Market - Good Negotiation Strategies ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ice View Post
There's nothing deceptive there. The asking price is public and fully stated. What is deceptive is going in and taking the sellers time and energy with no intention or communication that you are ever offering anywhere near the asking.

If the asking price is followed by something like 'offers welcome' or anything similar, then anything is fair. The owner has signaled that he is looking for any offer.

If you go look at a boat, fully aware of the asking price, and don't say anything, the assumption is that you are willing to be within lets say 10-15% of the asking, assuming the boat is as described. You are taking being deceptive and taking advantage of the current honor based system if you don't and never intend to be near the asking. The owner or broker are taking valuable time and energy to show you the boat. If enough people do that, then the system will have to change, to say require no-return deposits before showing a boat.



First, my simple point is that if your intention is to offer way less than the asking, you should communicate that early in the process. If 35k is anywhere near the 'market value' then that's perfectly fine. Let the owner know early, provide support for your argument if you have it, and if they want to proceed then everyone wins.

Second, and perhaps more debatable in our 'hard cruel world', if 35K is well below the true 'marklet price' and all you are trying to do is screw a poor and uninformed widow before she learns what the true market price is, then you are certaintly not following the golden rule, and I personally would say being unethetical, but are certaintly being legal and a full partner of the 'profit at any price' group.

I don't except everyone to agree with me on this. Ethics and honor are pretty obsolete terms and long gone from 'business'. It would be nice if we, as cruising sailors, could view our passion as community rather than business.
I agree with Ice. Furthermore, it is not just good ethics, but good business -- if you intend to make a lowball offer -- and sometimes it is perfectly reasonable to do so -- if you have spent a lot of the seller's time without this warning he is likely to tell you to buzz off, just out of principle. And being careful to warn can save your time, too, in case the price is really firm.

One should keep in mind that there is no rule about how many % below the asking price it is reasonable to offer. Some boats for sale would be too expensive at 50% of the asking price. Some boats are cheap at 100% of the asking price. There is no fixed rule. The market is tough for some types of boat, and in some places, not so tough for other types of boats in other places.
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Old 03-03-2012, 15:45   #56
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Re: Bad Market - Good Negotiation Strategies ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rognvald View Post
Just a thought . . . it would be interesting to know how many hard bargainers" with little concern for wasting a broker's/seller's time have ever owned a retail business or worked as a commissioned salesman. My guess is zero to none since ,if they did, they would never treat another professional they way they, on occasion, have been treated themselves. The worst buyers in the worst markets are always those who think that everyone other than themselves is a crook, a cheat, or not worthy of respect. Once again, a hard bargainer can still be a gentleman and win.
Just out of interest, what do you define as "wasting a broker's / seller's time"?
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Old 03-03-2012, 15:54   #57
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Re: Bad Market - Good Negotiation Strategies ?

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DOJ's methodology is the answer to this thread in all it's eloquence... Cheers
Thanks - I tried for eloquence .

and the thing to remember, whilst folk are talking "fair" and "timewasting" is that the Vendor can stop dancing at any time he wants to.

If your Broker decides a sale is not worth a bit of effort - you need a new Broker.

The days of numpties queing up to hand over cheques in exchange for mainly warm words and a bit of smoke up the jacksy are over - but not every Vendor or Broker has yet got that memo ......most buyers have.
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Old 03-03-2012, 16:01   #58
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Re: Bad Market - Good Negotiation Strategies ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey View Post
Just out of interest, what do you define as "wasting a broker's / seller's time"?

The "mind games" you proposed in your last tutorial. People who have bought and sold for a living never waste time . . . neither theirs nor a sellers. Get to the quick, or get off the stick. It makes for fair and honest dealings.
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Old 03-03-2012, 16:04   #59
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Re: Bad Market - Good Negotiation Strategies ?

Same as the housing market, with all the falsely inflated values.
Just because the market say's the house is worth $400,000 doesn't mean its worth anymore than it was 20 years ago at $125,000
The system stinks to high heaven.
I lived in a beautiful small town with really good people, but then the government started giving away citizenship to those who could afford to invest and jump the immigration line.
Real estate agents made a killing, banks made a killing, but a small town was over run with Immigrants with their own culture and their own language.
It got so bad that they bought out all of the previous owners of the malls and businesses, and then had the nerve to have their hired goons escort anyone NOT of their color or language out of their Malls,, or they would just ignore you if you tried to get service in their stores.
Before long,,the only signs where in Chinese,,while the rest of the country had to follow the laws regarding signage they got away with it.

A Town was lost,,the older residents moved to the outer perimeter townships, and now no-one will say Boo,,for fear of looking and sounding like a Racist.
This is what happens when you let Rampant Profiteering loose on your home turf.
So dont bother trying to defend your money grubbing profit making ways to me. because i was robbed of my home town by the like of such Profit mongerers.
Nuf Said.
Rant is over!!!!!!!!!
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Old 03-03-2012, 16:14   #60
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Re: Bad Market - Good Negotiation Strategies ?

My apologies fellow shipmates, this subject ripped of an old bandage.
I am usually the picture of getting alongness.
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