Asking vs Selling Prices

[Wolfer69]

Greetings. Thinking about a sailboat again. I owned/lived on a Tayana 42 center cockpit for a while. My first wife decided me on a 42" was too much, and the boat went in the divorce. Got a great new wife, kids are out of the house, and I want another boat. Want to see Europe, cross the pond, etc.

My question is how are selling prices going these days? When I bought my Tayana it was a sellers market, and there was a little wriggle room, but not much. Of course, I was a young fool, thought my broker was working for me, and was daftly in love with the Tayana I found.

I'm buying this one for cash, ready to walk away from anything, and have a direct understanding that I am a meal ticket to a broker. Nothing more, nothing less.

With the economy, the credit crunch, and the unemployment picture, I am thinking this could be a good time to be a cash buyer.

Appreciate the help. I have been lurking and reading posts for a while. Always a good community in the sailing world.

By the way, I think I have settled on a Orion 27. Last time, I was taking all my stuff, wanted my VHS player (dating myself there), etc. This time I want a boat, and i want it off the dock immediately.

A quick story. When I first bought my Tayana, it was in Annapolis. I was a complete gear queer. I spent more time in West marine than I did in the Chesapeake. There was a large 70 ish footer next door. It was a rich boys toy, and had a professional skipper on board. Nice, older British lady. One day she watched me carrying even more junk on the boat. She asked me, "do you ever take that boat out". I explained to her that I was updating it. She looked at wryly, and said, "and you always will."

I think this time, I am not fixing anything. I am just leaving. If it breaks, I will fix it.

[SkiprJohn]

Aloha and welcome aboard!
Its a buyers market. You undoubtedly know boats so I won't bore you with recommendations.
If electronic gear breaks I throw it out and don't replace it unless it is a safety issue.
regards,

[Pete7]

Hi and welcome. Hailing from the other side of the pond I had to Google an Orion 27 to see what they are like. I just wonder if they are big enough to comfortably be a home especially if you are crossing the pond and planning to visit Europe. If you were stuck in a UK marina for a week whilst it rained every day would you end up with cabin fever ? I am not suggesting going back to 42 feet but as a cash buyer you have one chance to choose the ideal yacht. What do you get if you went up a few feet to 31/32 feet? and it is a buyers market this side of the pond at the moment.

Pete

[SaltyMonkey]

I agree with Pete7. I also am considering the Orion 27 as a fallback, but I am going solo. Even for me, I am looking at boats between 30-38', not just for room, but also for speed and stability in higher lats.

PSC are reputable, but there are other reputable boats out there for a cod-passage to Europe that give you more boat per dollar, larger, and will get you there safely. If you are hell bent on PSC I would really consider a 34 Voyagemaker or a 37. And maybe the Mariah 31. Thought they also made a 32. There is a 32 PH, but I thought there was a sloop at one time. Larger good for guests too.

Be advised, there are two versions of the Orion - MK I and MK II. The MK I has a larger foredeck and a cramped forward cabin and I read that there were some balance issues because everything was put on the starboard side (tanks etc). The MKII redesign opened up the fore area cabin by removing foredeck and enlarging the house, and fixing balance issues. Some people like the earlier MK I because it had more foredeck. You can tell the difference between the two because the MK had 4 portholes on the side while the MK II has 5.

Honestly, don't know if Crealock worked at all on the MKII off of Henry Morschadt's MK I designs, or helped in any way

[speakeasy]

Hello and welcome Wolfer69! It is certainly a buyer's market and will get even more so in the next year or two I believe. So there is no reason to be in a hurry and every reason to look for the right boat. Besides, for me at least, patience is one of the most important sailing skills I'm developing.

I just bought in Mexico, and bought at 75% of ask. That was after price had already been slashed in half over the 18 mo. she was for sale. I bought more boat than I initially intended, 41' vs 37'ish. But I'm 6'2" and 225# and never quite felt I could live on a 30-34 footer comfortably. A sound hull, deck, rig and engine were where I started up with any prospect, and tho' I intend to modify some features to be able to have cockpit sail control, she could go tomorrow if I had crew.

Good luck with your boat search and new path. Jon

[capt_douglas]

Most of the sub-$100K boats are being bought for cash, unfortunately.

As far as asking prices, here's what I've discovered as I look for my cruising home. Note that depending on the condition of the vessel the offered price may be closer to the asking than usual. And I've yet to find that magical number that assures me of getting the boat I want at the price I want.

- Many boats for sale are priced too high, imo. The condition of the vessel, lack of love/maintenance, and unrealistic expectations in a buyers market, preclude a realistic price.

- You can negotiate better if there are a number of boats you're serious about on the market.

- Boats with lots of extras that you don't (or are indicating you don't) want and owners wanting to recover some of the cost for them cost more, even if you're plans are to remove them. Simple can mean a much better price ratio and lower installation costs as well.

- Boats you can sail and work on will generally cost more than boats you have to work on before you can sail them. The cost difference between a "fixer-upper" or "needs TLC" and "ready to sail" can be considerable as can the aggravation.

Here's what I'm doing:
- scour the internet for the make/model/size you want and develop a good idea of not only what they're selling for but what they're history of problems are as well as what the extra's are costing
- go and look at the boat personally. Check everything (if you can find a generic or better yet, a boat specific survey form) against the survey form. Some things won't apply but the idea of the survey form is to tickle my mind while I'm aboard.
- grab the HIN and do some research on it. Has it been in an accident, ever chartered, got a lien on it, taxes paid, no clear ownership paper trail?
- get more info on the items I find aren't giving me a warm fuzzy feeling
- figure out what these items would cost to either get them into good condition, replace, or do without. I don't consider my time into this but do look for average prices.
- know that certain things are going to be replaced (bedding, cushion covers, hoses underwater, oil in engine and tranny, sea cocks, thru-hulls, stuffing box packing, raw water impeller, dock lines, all filters, halyards, zincs,..), rebuilt (head, bilge/fresh water foot/powered pumps, autopilot/wind vane, winches and windlasses,...), or repaired (sail cars, battens, quadrant steering, etc)
- the cost for the haul, boat and mechanical survey, oil analysis, battery condition, water tank inspection, fuel tank and contents inspection and analysis
- generate a price for these items then add 30% for things you'll miss unless the owner has receipts for these items then deduct them from the list. No receipt, no discount. And don't try to pencil whip me with some kind of maintenance book. Been there, done that, got burned.

- give a very hard look at the rigging. IMO, if the rigging hasn't been changed in 5+ years, I want it inspected. If it's been 10+ years then I want it replaced.
- give the sails a hard look. Check for wear, tear, shape and condition. Consider taking them to a loft for an independent appraisal
- give the mast a good look at. If paint's flaking off then it may be time to pull the stick, check the internals, sheaves, and spreaders carefully. Have the goose neck fitting looked at carefully.
- check every stanchion for cracks, movement, or bend.
- check every cleat for a backing plate, signs of heavy stress, or distortion
- check every block, car, and track for age, wear, slip, looseness
- if the boat has a bimini or dodger, check the fabric, eisenglass, stainless supports and attachment to the boat.

Then take the first section costs along with 50-70% of the cost of the second section and add them together. Now, I've got a cost that I can work with. I then present my offer which is the asking price minus my costs/deductions due to the boat being in less than "sailable" condition, based on my opinion. I also specify that surveys must show no additional problems and that sea trials either show no additional problems and that the boat's right for me. If not I want my deposit back.

I'll tell the broker the areas of concern as well as the areas I found in better than average condition. I don't give them a breakdown, just a basic overview, an idea of the big ticket items, and my offer.

What's not included in the offering price: boat preparation, time on the hard, professional labor unless the surveys come back with big ticket items, getting the boat from the point of sale to my neighborhood, or things I may have missed.

I tend to draw a line in the sand when it comes to the offering price. I make an offer, look for a counteroffer, may negotiate a bit but I always have a max number in my head and if we can't agree with my price then I say thanks for the fish, but no thanks, and move on to the next boat. Repeat the above until you get a yes to the offer.

FWIW, I'm 0-2 in the offer process, but I don't think I'm doing things drastically wrong. I'll be interested in the comments of others.

[Mambo]

Originally Posted by Wolfer69

Greetings. Thinking about a sailboat again. I owned/lived on a Tayana 42 center cockpit for a while. My first wife decided me on a 42" was too much, and the boat went in the divorce. Got a great new wife, kids are out of the house, and I want another boat. Want to see Europe, cross the pond, etc.

My question is how are selling prices going these days? When I bought my Tayana it was a sellers market, and there was a little wriggle room, but not much. Of course, I was a young fool, thought my broker was working for me, and was daftly in love with the Tayana I found.

I'm buying this one for cash, ready to walk away from anything, and have a direct understanding that I am a meal ticket to a broker. Nothing more, nothing less.

With the economy, the credit crunch, and the unemployment picture, I am thinking this could be a good time to be a cash buyer.

Appreciate the help. I have been lurking and reading posts for a while. Always a good community in the sailing world.

By the way, I think I have settled on a Orion 27. Last time, I was taking all my stuff, wanted my VHS player (dating myself there), etc. This time I want a boat, and i want it off the dock immediately.

A quick story. When I first bought my Tayana, it was in Annapolis. I was a complete gear queer. I spent more time in West marine than I did in the Chesapeake. There was a large 70 ish footer next door. It was a rich boys toy, and had a professional skipper on board. Nice, older British lady. One day she watched me carrying even more junk on the boat. She asked me, "do you ever take that boat out". I explained to her that I was updating it. She looked at wryly, and said, "and you always will."

I think this time, I am not fixing anything. I am just leaving. If it breaks, I will fix it.

Back to thinking about sailboats again, eh? Well, its about time!

The Orion is a pretty sweet boat. It was definitely in my top 5 or so when I was looking for the large pocket cruiser / midsize cruiser (the groupings are ever changing). I wound up with a Cape Dory and I would definitely recomend them as offering great bang for the buck.

I think the used boat market in the states is starting to firm up a bit. Prices are down from what they were a couple of years ago, but they are firmer than they were a year ago (that is just my SOTP subjective view of the market so . . . take it FWIW). Still, I think it is not unrealistic to hope to pay somewhere in the 65-75% of asking price on boats which are not a) brand new to the market or, a) in pristine condition. The fall market is almost always better for buyers in the NE and the FL market may be more depressed than other parts of the country (it certainly was a year ago).

One last thing about Orions, the market is fickle because there aren't that many out there at any given time. Sometimes they'll be listed in the high 40's and other times there will be a few available in the 20's. Don't overpay. On the other hand, the Mark II appears to be a significant upgrade from the original.

Luck,
-M

[SaltyMonkey]

Jesu Cappy Doug! You are indeed more organized than I ever am!

Since I am basically in the same situation looking , here is how I am working the boat process right now.

First visit to a boat, all I do is get a sense of what the general integrity and condition of the boat is like. I don't take pictures or video. I don't write down all the facts of what I see, etc. What I try and do is get a sense of what the previous owner did to it, the attitude of the person selling the boat. I only check out the "major systems". I check the engine, rigging, sails, paint condition on deck and above water. I poke around and check tanks etc, leakage. I try to look for stress fractures. I bring a mallet, but rarely use it.

Now, I used to do a lot of poking and looking, but I found that keeps me too intellectually locked into taking pictures and writing down things, and I miss out the sense of the boat as a whole, and the buying process which I think is more important on a first date.

Also, I see as many candidates as I can. I don't spend a whole day or 1/2 day on each boat. Maybe 1/2 to 1 hour. This has the benefit of 1) keeps you emotionally free from angst of buying (there is always another boat to see) 2) I get more boats to compare to each other per shopping visit.

BTW, I NEVER bring a check book.

* **
Next, I go home and break out the spreadsheet. I put the asking price in and then I have arranged basically a template questionnaire of things I think might need to be done on any boat I buy. Some of these thing would be done not matter what is on the boat already. Ex: Electronics, whether on the boat now, my mind is set to replace these no matter what boat I end up with. Electronics go out of date quickly and are not networked the way I want them these days. I use the old as backups Rigging and sails I feel the same way. I have a budget. There are some things that are options. For example, wind vanes. If the boat doesn't have a SS Wind Vane I will need to buy one. If the boat has an alcohol stove, I have a budget for replacing that. Dink? Life raft? And so on..

After the spreadsheet is complete, this will give me an idea of things I plan on upgrading right away so I can sail alone, things I can install once in the water, and things I need before I take off on a cruise. There is also built into this relative labour costs if I cannot do the work myself. I then use a % cell to adjust the asking price to something I can afford and think is reasonable based on my study and my budget. Even if things look good in terms of costs, this also gives me an idea of what labour there is on my own time and that may kill it when I compare it to other boats. I will continue to make adjustments till it "feels right".

I do this with every boat I see that day. Then, I compare them to each other. One boat, which is more costly but loaded with some goodies turns out to be less attractive to a cheaper boat that I would upgrade. The offer would have been ridiculously low. Another cheaper one which I would think would work with only a new engine install is still not quite on par with a better one with an engine with 1200 hours.

BTW I keep a record of every listing I can and the asking price. I have a set list of boats that I am tracking. I use this information to get a sense if the asking is fair.

In the back of my mind I am also comparing other subjective things. Can I live without that U shaped galley on boat #1 that is supposed to be less of a sailer? Or can I be satisfied with the starboard side galley on boat #2 that is supposed to be a better sailer?

* * *

Second visit, I only perform if I am absolutely sure this boat is for me. I perform a more thorough job as the Cappy suggests, and what I plan on doing these days is hiring a surveyor to do a "walk through" or "drop by"...just a validation and second eye for me. You could also bring a friend who is knowledgeable about sailing or boating. NO checkbook this time either. If I am going to sweat it out, the owner will have to too.

I again make some adjustments at home and based on that will call in my offer. I might lower it a bit just because I expect some negotiation.

* * *

These days, I don't plan on doing much negotiation. I guess the economy for one has me worried and in a good spot as a buyer, I have had a number of boats and at this point the emotional "gotta have" isn't that strong (also seeing a lot of boats softens you up), and the money I have budgeted came from a lot of **** I had to put up with from other people and myself, and a lot of hard sweat. It's not that easy to let it go from my claws.

After offer, survey time. Now the clock is ticking and you are paying $. To get to this point is serious. I used to just have a regular survey w/ engine check by same surveyor (if lucky). These days I would have a full survey, a mechanical survey, a sea trial, and a rigging survey performed. If something is found that is major, I might negotiate it down, leave it and fix it myself if I think its doable and the offer is fine because I got a very good price, or walk away if its costly and they won't adjust.

My ideal sale is one when all parties get something from the deal. I get a boat that I can afford, might need some minimal or expected work, and will last me a good long while. They get my cash and can move on in their lives.

[shadow]

I also think that it is a buyers market. I've had a few yachts bookmarked, and they have been decreasing in price nearly per month. I'm hoping that they will be available when we are ready to go. I do realize that it is a HUGE risk doing it that way, but I do have several on the queue which will suit my needs. I'm hoping that if they are all or some still available by the time I'm ready, they should really be in the excellent price range so I can have more spare cash to do the necessary upgrades, etc..

This is a gamble and everything is riding on possible hopes. If not, I like Capt. Douglas' technique of search and negotiate. Very common sense and practical for my needs..

[Wolfer69]

Thank you all for your answers. Depending on price I have thought of going up to a 30 or 31. Knowing how dockage, slip fees are based on boat length, I am trying to keep her small.

Last time, I sold my house, and lived solely on the boat. This time I am keeping my house, and planning the adventure to last a year or two.

I am in a odd financial situation of having a paid for house, a retirement check, and some cash to buy the boat. My retirement money will have to be split to maintain both the house and the boat though.

I can decidely remember dollar signs in marina employees eyes when the 42 pulled in. I plan on a small boat, tacky teak, and some holey jeans this time. As I have gotten older, I have understood that everything is negotiable.

[gr8trn]

Sellers also realize that the economy is down, lenders are tighter, people are more savvy about price. As such a boat needs to be priced well to sell. There are fewer "over-priced" boats now.
I do know that I have not seen a boat sell that was not a cash deal in the range that you are talking about.
I also don't find that sellers are any more interested in "low ball" offers than they ever have been.
You are getting good advice from SaltyMonkey and Capt Doulgas for sure.
Even if you pulled the soldboats of the same year and model you would have a range of asking/selling prices. There is no real comparable boat. Sure the market gives you a ball park but then it is up to you and yours to find the right price.
Quick example:
Mid 2000's, mid 30 foot production cruiser, lightly used fresh water, listed 168K, sold 145K.
1970's, 29 footer "blue water", rode hard and put a way wet, listed 9K, reduced to 8K, just offered 6K and seller said NO. And this is a boat that needs to be pulled out of the water and put under a tarp and become a major project for some lucky CLOD.
Place, boats, models not disclosed to protect the innocent.
Hope this gives you some idea that regardless of current state of the economy, how long a boat is sits, how low the price gets dropped, the seller still wants money for the boat, otherwise they would donate it or use it.
Greg

[Stillraining]

Originally Posted by capt_douglas

Then take the first section costs along with 50-70% of the cost of the second section and add them together. Now, I've got a cost that I can work with. I then present my offer which is the asking price minus my costs/deductions due to the boat being in less than "sailable" condition, based on my opinion. I also specify that surveys must show no additional problems and that sea trials either show no additional problems and that the boat's right for me. If not I want my deposit back.


I tend to draw a line in the sand when it comes to the offering price. I make an offer, look for a counteroffer, may negotiate a bit but I always have a max number in my head and if we can't agree with my price then I say thanks for the fish, but no thanks, and move on to the next boat. Repeat the above until you get a yes to the offer.

FWIW, I'm 0-2 in the offer process, but I don't think I'm doing things drastically wrong. I'll be interested in the comments of others.

Hey Cap...

Im a tough negotiator myself so don't take this wrong...But in your above outline there is no mention of comparing the asking price to the same model/make of boat and its condition for an over all preception of where it realy falls in the market.

In other words your discounting everything you find wrong on your list and expecting it to be a negotiable item.

Now if a boat is already at the low price for condition, then many of thees thing have already been discounted...Trying to beat a "Realistically" priced boat and owner up in that case will leave you with a 0 in your batting average possibly indefinitely.

Believe it or not ...not every seller out there is trying tro screw someone..or broker for that mater.

I try and keep that in mind when Im out looking so Im not trying to come across as a buyer trying to screw a seller as well.

[speakeasy]

Originally Posted by Stillraining

Hey Cap...

Im a tough negotiator myself so don't take this wrong...But in your above outline there is no mention of comparing the asking price to the same model/make of boat and its condition for an over all preception of where it realy falls in the market.

In other words your discounting everything you find wrong on your list and expecting it to be a negotiable item.

Now if a boat is already at the low price for condition, then many of thees thing have already been discounted...Trying to beat a "Realistically" priced boat and owner up in that case will leave you with a 0 in your batting average possibly indefinitely.

Believe it or not ...not every seller out there is trying tro screw someone..or broker for that mater.

I try and keep that in mind when Im out looking so Im not trying to come across as a buyer trying to screw a seller as well.

I agree Still R. Market comps will help, more and more as sellers reach their POR (point of recognition) about where the market has gone. And as to the last point, keeping good faith can be very valuable, especially in a custom boat. A full PO briefing can save months of tracking down systems and understanding idiosyncrasies. When I first offered at 60%, they countered with 75%, which was someone saying this is what I can sell for and I want to sell. A neighbor in the dry storage told my buddy that the original offer was twice the current ask.

These sort of deals come from our hard times, with many folks drowning under debt having to liquidate that which is unnecessary for survival. It is a hard time getting harder. All the more reason for a clean feeling deal for all concerned if possible.

[CarlF]

was daftly in love with the Tayana I found

That's the spirit. When buying a boat, love is worth an extra 10%. Find a boat you love and then get a fair price. Did you find your new wife based on the biggest discount from original asking price?

I would never buy a boat that didn't have a loving owner. No post survey discount can make up for neglect. That's why I always conduct an "owner survey" perferablly by seeing the boat with the owner - but if not - by at least talking to him by phone. If a broker won't arrange this, I'm not interested.

I also won't sell my boat to someone who approaches it as a purely financial, tough negotiation transaction. I'm sure they're nice guys, but I just ignore buyers like SaltyMonkey and Capt_douglas. Life's too short. I sold my last boat for over $400k in the fall. Price negotiations took 10 minutes. No adjustment was requested after survey.

Are there some "desperate sellers" out there. Sure - but do you really want to buy a boat from someone who might not have had the money to care for her properly?

And are prices down some in the last few years? Sure. But not as much as you'd think for the well loved boats.

Carl

[SaltyMonkey]

That's fine CarlF we ignore you too @ 400k. Love$ got nuthin' to do with it.