Would You Critique a Boat I Am Looking at, Please ?

[Adax]

Promise this will be the last question for a while.

This is my white elephant boat : Newbie no experience other than reading, looking for a liveaboard almost immediately sailaway or as soon as I am. And yes of course, I will take lessons , try and crew at least a bit etc,hire someone for an extended period to show me the boat once and if I have it. I know that there are characteristic problems of older steel boats and I will ask for survey from a steel boat surveyor . I have already started the reading on the sites mentioned on my other thread. I am not sold on the idea of having a steel boat, it is just this particular one that spooks around my head and also spooks me ...

A how long is a piece of string question too . How long does it take to master the handling of this boat and set off on solo adventures within teh Sea of Cortez without reducing your natural life expectancy drastically? Thinking of paying for full day one to one sailing instruction and having quite a bit of theory under my belt.

I like :

• size (for living on it and later go anywhere ability)

• lines brought aft already

• solidity

• good range of equipment

• stored out of water for 10 years

• a fridge ! and the generator/solarpanels to support it

• it is here ,it is now it is within my budget

• it is a lot of boat for the price ( if in good condition)

• it is steel,so next to wood the most easily fixable anywhere where there is electricity and a welder ?

I dislike :

• size (for learning to handle it)

• standing rigging is original .If it is the same as with cars the manufacturer quality was much better then, but still a lot of wind has passed over it .

• More time needed to learn to sail this elephant than a 25-30 Footer?

• a fear that maintenance issues could be less transparent than let´s say on a wooden hull boat and be more pricey than for a trad fibreglass or wood boat

1987 Forges de Paimpon Flush deck Cutter Sail Boat For Sale -

[amarinesurveyor]

It looks pretty decent in the pictures, I wonder how old they are? When a boat is sitting so long, you will find that a lot of the equipment won't work, water and fuel systems will need to be flushed out, possibly remove all the old fuel. Batteries will probably need to be replaced, engine serviced, and on and on. Look in all the bilge spaces for rust, and in the anchor locker. Look up under the floorboards for rust, and under settees and in lockers.
24 year old standing rigging should probably be replaced. Probably have to replace some of the running rigging also. Winches might need to be taken apart and lubed.
But the price is attractive, and as long as there is not much rust, and you are willing to take on a project, it could probably be a great boat.
Good luck in your decision.
Brian

[daddle]

Ugh. A headache. Someone designed a bordello interior and as an afterthought added an engine and an exterior resembling a boat. Go simpler.

[zeehag]

gurlee-what i sed in mypm to ye goes double now--lol-- isnt harder to learn on a bigger boat--is DRIER!!!!!!
ye dont fall in when ye foul it up
most important thing a female needs to remember--is
NEVER DATE ANY MAN WITH A BOAT SMALLER THAN YOURS.
unless he can present without an ego or attitude--i found most to not be able to handle the insult of female boat larger than his waah.. sorry guys--am female and i still have it, as it were despite age---so i have been told--and i can make heads turn -- seen it happen..LOl feels goooooooooood....
GEAUX GURL-- if ye can do what i sed in pm , is all good..... good luck!!!!
oh yes marelon fittings..... change out rig piece by piece and learn the boat. make her yours. definitely--i did see the pix-- ..what i sed....besides ye has aggressions to work off--is a perfect project.
rigging can be changed out in the water and isnt on the top 5 list i made ye
the ones i did send are for launching and maintenance of floating condition. and always make sure all pumps work well and hoses are intact afore ye launches her.....
learning to sail her--point and shoot method-- take her into large deep area and find the wind and turn off engine and learn. easier in a large boat-- but some think dinks and dousings in cold water are better ways to learn. is no best way-- the best way is YOUR way, currently, probably a hands on method in a large boat. do you already own this one?? if so--just hunker down and go for it and win and show everyone what ye mean. learn sailing on opb for a while, and have fun. learn your palace and be proud of her.
learn to weld. you willl need it
you prolly wont ever want another or different boat after her. she should handle like a champ,as has champion lineage. rockon,babygurl..you show em!!!! just watch for rocks and anything larger than you are or pointier.....go behind anything faster than you are.... aim at stern.....too bad we dont have a NEW TO SAILING FLAG..lol... i realy think your white elephant is gonna be ok-- and when folks see ye sailing her they will try to buy her-- ask a ridiculously high price then to cover pain and suffering of all the prickles in the path....and if you can do it in record time, someone will become envious and will try to contact about.....so plan as you will for what ye want and own the world

[bljones]

Good designer.
All the bells and whistles.
The price is right.
BUT...
Minimal handholds below.
A lot of wasted space.
The accommodations look like they were fitted by a Finnish sauna manufacturer or a Sausalito hot-tub builder.
Open V-berth. last thing i want is my guests to see me and SWMBO working our way through the Kama Sutra...or vice versa. There are damned few pale white asses i have any interest in seeing when i wander into the galley for a post-mifnight tumbler of water.
Steel framed dodger which appears to be wicked low- banging your head on weekends might be okay, but daily as a liveaboard? That gets old, quick.
Everything is worn. You'll be either a0 doing a major five figure refit NOW, or b) chasing maintenance for the next olympiad, usually in inopportune moments in inappropriate locations.

Offer him $15K. See if he bites.

[roverhi]

If the boat can pass a survey by a surveyor knowledgable about steel boats, this boat sounds like a winner. Of course, it's a steel boat so will require constant attention to rust problems. Not a deal killer, just a fact of life with steel.

You can redo the rigging with Norseman/StaLok terminals yourself for not a lot over a $1,000. Shop Ebay for the terminals and use 316 wire. The condition of the sails will be a biggy as they are expensive to replace. If the boat has been out of the water for most of it's life, there may still be a lot of life left in the standing rigging. Careful inspection and end for ending the wire may get you on your way without spending a lot of money. Headsails can be bought on Ebay and/or used sail brokers for a good price if you have the patience to wait for them to turn up. The main is pretty much a bespoke item for your boat so it's condition is crucial in your estimation of costs. Be sure it has slab reefing and preferably three reef points.

As far as learning to handle the boat, A few times in and out of the slip will get you to the point where you'll be able to tale the boat out on your own. Sailing the boat is something that will depend on your ability to learn. It's not rocket science if you understand how the sails and the hull work together. I'd highly suggest buying an 8' or so sailing dinghy and sail the hell out of it. You'll learn real quick how to sail and you'll need a dinghy for you adventures, in any case. Take the Coast Guard Auxillary or Power Squadron boating courses to get the ground school part of boating at the cheapest possible cost.

I've never taken a boating course or really had any instruction other than the rudimentary navigation given in the Navy Aviation Cadet course. Taught myself to sail in a sunfish, bought a 26' sailboat that I took out on the Pacific at night and into a strange harbor the day I took delivery. Went from that to a 35' sailboat that I sailed from Tampa to Norfolk for a first sail. At first, I read and STUDIED every sailing magazine that I could find. a couple of navigation books and quite a few books on cruising. I'm all self taught and have sailed well over 15,000 miles on both the Atlantic and Pacific including a solo TransPac. A lot of boats sit in harbor because the owner doesn't have a crew. Hanging around the docks and volunteering to crew on boats that are raced is another great source of free experience. If there is a local sail oriented magazine like Latitude 38 Latitude 38 - The West's Leading Sailing and Marine Magazine, it will have crew want ads. Local yacht clubs also are a good source for crew experience.

Other sailors are a great store of knowledge and you may be able to talk some of them into going out with you at first. Also, joining a sailing oriented Yacht Club is another great source for a newbie. I'm not talking the New York Yacht Club but a blue collar club that has an active sailing program. Membership is down so many clubs are looking for new members without an initiation fee. Monthly costs are fairly low and the bar can be a good place to hang out to pick up on interesting tales. You also can get reciprocal with other clubs for mooring and shower use along the way of your cruise. Most have a greatly reduced fee for those out cruising.

BTW, think the good old Aires is the best self steering vane out there. Just be careful about corrosion between the stainless fasteners and aluminum castings. Disassemble it and reassemble using Lanocote and/or TefGel to cut down on the problem.

[Paul L]

There are not a lot of surveyors to pick from in La Paz. It is a pretty small ex-pat and boating community. A steel boat as a first time boat could be a pretty steep learning curve. Refitting in La Paz is doable, but it comes with its own set of headaches. Talented locals and material are available, it just takes lot of time and effort to make things happen. The area around La Paz is good cruising ground for cutting your teeth. Starting early June you have to figure what you are going to do about hurricane season.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Adax

I dislike :

• size (for learning to handle it)

32ft-40ft... the learning curve is the same... you'll still go "Oh gawd.. Oh gwad... ahh ahhhhhh... Sh#*..." a few times... just remember its steel and kills surrounding plastic...

• standing rigging is original .If it is the same as with cars the manufacturer quality was much better then, but still a lot of wind has passed over it .

If she's been on land a while and the owners had the sense to slacken the rig there should be life left in the wire... any weakness will be in the swages check them carefully... also get a below water hull thickness test to see how much shes lost over the years... I presume her original specs are available.

• More time needed to learn to sail this elephant than a 25-30 Footer?

Why more time... See above... does it take longer to learn to drive a Hummer or a Mini... same judgements needed for both boats...

• a fear that maintenance issues could be less transparent than let´s say on a wooden hull boat and be more pricey than for a trad fibreglass or wood boat

Thats down to a good steel specialist surveyor to point out the weak spots in the set-up..she's open plan which is good for ventilation and makes access to hull easier.. but then thats something I like...
Steels cheaper than GRP to repair... and wood come to that...

1987 Forges de Paimpon Flush deck Cutter Sail Boat For Sale -

.....

[Adax]

Marine surveyor ,thank you for the walkthrough of where to look. It helps for my initial eyeballing, before I get the heavy guys involved . And yes I thought about the fotos too. Teh firstone looks like it was taken in teh 80s as even with image improvement software teh pic does not become clearer. First thing I will ask the broker is for more pics. One would think that a digital camara should be part of their toolkit.

Bljones: My first renovation job will be my keyboard after your description of daily onboard life...ROFL- Curtains at least are a must .. Re the decor I will either have to think out of the box or resign myself and go all the way with animal print all over ... Thanks for pointing out the dodger frame .I skimmed over that.

Daddle: Yes the interior needs saving somehow. Once I see it for real I will have an idea if there is hope. And yes I might go simpler .It is just that this boat has been on my mind since I first saw it and seriously for the last 3 months or so .

Roverhi,thanks for the heads up on sails and standing rigging . Will make that part of my to be investigated list .And yes once I am rid of teh house I will approach yacht clubs . At times this thread feesl a bit surreal as I am still landlogged at 2400m altitude.

Paul L,that was my gut feeling on buying steel in Mexico as most people would want to Xray it .However there was steel before Xraying a boat became an option. Will investigate if there is another method that gives a reasonably accurate state of the hull . I saw that there are 5 surveyors recommended by the broker ....I will see if I can find number 6.

Zee , your info here and in the PM is priceless .Thank you. You put wind in my sails

[Pete7]

La Paz, its hot there isn't it? you will have to forgive me we don't have that problem on this side of the pond

A general question to the forum then, what's it like living on a steel boat in that heat?

The standing rigging is 23 years old, personally I would budget for renewing it now and then benefit from knowing its done and the mast isn't going to fall down. The interior isn't to my tastes but a tin of white gloss paint would go along way to sorting it out and give a cool feel in that heat, so that's time and graft. As already mentioned the spray hood looks like an assault course obstacle, but 10 minutes with an angle grinder would sort that.

Got to be worth a lowish offer and see if you get a bite.

Pete

[Adax]

Boatman, just saw your reply -thanks . I am glad to get confirmation the way you gave it . I used the car analogy once and got shot down that with you show your inexperience that it could not be compared ( well no. I doubt I will find a brakepedal, but I was not comparing like for like, but concepts) And thanks for putting a name to the thingymajig - swages . Did not know the English word for that .My boat vocabulary is one third Spanish, 2 thirds English at the moment.

And the point about steel trumps plastic is well taken. While looking for solutions for the heat I came across a hurricane story about a steel boat that had 3 plastic ones thrown at it,all dented but did not take on water.

Pete ,good point. I know the Solent and believe it or not soemtimes I miss British weather .But yes, very hot in summer . I was worried about being a sitting duck for the heat, but as Boatman pointed out it is open plan so can be ventilated more easily. If the learning curve in terms of sailing is not all that steep as in that I could get going fairly quickly , the movement plus the openplan should be able to cool things off, but it would be a matter of assessing the deck insulation, what it really does in terms of heat insulation and what one could do to insulate further without making the boat sweat .

[witchcraft]

Steel boat is no worse in the heat than any other boat in my experience. Of course our steel boat is insulated above the water line and that helps with both chill and heat. Deck colour and shade arrangements are more important. Steel may rust, fiberglass get osmosis, core may get soggy, wood may rot...each material has it's problems and concerns. It takes me less time to paint etc my steel boat than it took me to clean wax and polish my fiberglass boat which was smaller. So everything is a trade off. A good surveyor should be able to give indication of the hull, paying I hope carefull attention to the inside of the hull.
Happy boat hunting.

[callmecrazy]

I took my ASA lessons on two different boats, a 31' and a 39'. The learning curve is equal. The 30 footers are much easier to handle in the marina, and the gear is easier to manage alone, but the actual learning part of it is all the same.

[Adax]

Witchcraft,good to know that insulation and adequate shading helps just with any other boat .I just delved in the insulation side of thinga and theer are some pretty interesting things one can do with foam (no, not the spray on hull type or the cut to size,but a clever plan in between literally ) If I need to do it I will post about pros and cons .I hope that the existing insulation is good as the boat has good pedigree from the French builder

Callme crazy ,good to have confirmation that the learning curve is the same. So whether a boat is easy to handle is as much in the equipment and logistics thereof as in its length . Hmm fits. Somewhat unrelated but I had a conversation that a ketch is not for singlehanding as it is too much to do and here it was pointed out that it is easier to balance the sailtrim on it and a singlehander could therefore avoid major acrobatics if faced with unexpected wind. ( Put like an amateur but hope it is understandable what I mean. )

[zeehag]

YES you willwant modular insulation-- steel boats are freekingkold in cold water. trust me i know this from being in one...lol.... bbbbrr ye WAKE up when ye touch hull in sleep......and just plan on turning sooner than with a shorter boat and yer ok-- i done that..LOL....