Windvane unable to recover from full deflection

[Ryban]

I took my Vega 27 out for a short sail yesterday to test my windvane (Navik) again. I didn't actually lash it to my tiller, as I didn't trust it, and suspected it would tack the boat. But I did set the vane, and watch the way it behaved.

I noticed that when the paddle fully deflects (until it's stopped by the stays mounting it to the boat) it does not seem to be able to recover no matter how the vane is deflected. In the paddle's fully deflected position, it seems like the connector rods are unable to translate the vane's vertical input, into an appropriate rotational input to the trim tab, just due to the geometry at such position. However, I am able to manually rotate the connector that controls the trim tab and restore the paddle to its center position.

There's a diagram here for those unfamiliar with the Navik:
http://windvaneselfsteering.com/file/navik(uk).pdf

I did take a video of exactly what I described, but I will not be able to upload it until later this evening.

Anyone have some insight into what could be going awry here?

[gjordan]

I doubt you will get anything near the correct response from the vane without it being actually connected. I assume you have the connector on the tiller so that you can quickly unhook the chain if needed and also changing the chain position a few links is a form of fine tuning. It takes time to learn how to use a vane. My first 5 or 10 times out with a vane were not pretty. I thought mine was junk, but later I thought of it as the most valuable gear on the boat. Keep at it and it will turn out good for you. _____Grant.

[Ryban]

Thanks, I've heard this feedback a lot, and I'm going to keep trying. I don't think my Navik is junk by any means, I just haven't seen one properly used, so I have no point of comparison.

We had it connected last time, but it gybed us, so I was less willing this time. I have cleats on the tiller right now, but I'm going to add a pair of cam cleats instead so I can quickly disconnect the system.

[gjordan]

Something you might keep in your bag of tricks is a SHOCK CORD DAMPER. My first vane was directly mounted on an outboard rudder and my first attempts at using it had the tiller slamming back and forth and steering wildly. In a locker I had found a resin-phenelic board about 2 inches by 12 inches with shock cord on each end. It had 8 or 10 holes drilled in it. When I realized it was part of the self steering, things got easier. There was a large round head bronze screw head sticking up on the tiller and the trick was to use the board in whatever hole seemed correct to help with a little weather helm or lee helm (as needed) and it took the slamming and over steering out of the system. It still took a lot of practice to get things correct. My next vane was an Aries on a boat with a tiller. The Aries was easy to adjust one click at a time with the control lines in the cockpit. Even with that adjustment, the chain that hooked the steering lines to the tiller was important for fine tuning by moving it a few notches one way or the other. I just bought my 4th Aries last week. My 3rd was lost in a storage locker fire before I mounted it, so you can tell that I love vanes. I would not leave on a cruise without one. Best of luck with it and get lots of miles out of it. ______Grant.

[Kelkara]

I can't give you a proper answer, since I'm just beginning to learn how to use my Navik too ... It definitely takes a bit of practice, but I think it's going to become my new best friend .

I'll explain my rookie mistakes and learnings, and maybe you can see what you're doing in them, or someone with experience can elaborate a bit.

First of all, with the vane in the locked position, the steering oar should be somewhere near the vertical position while you're sailing along ... if not, then something is wrong. I once had the oar at full deflection, and it turned out that the link between the trim-tab and the control rod at the top of the rudder had become disconnected. I can't reach this from the boat, so had to wait til I could use the dinghy at anchor to reconnect it.

The goal is to twiddle the turret so that when you unlock the vane the vane stays close to the vertical position, and is not blown over to one side ... this is the art that I have not mastered yet.

What I do is this ... with the steering wheel disconnected, unlock the vane. The steering oar will probably swing hard over to one side. Then I twist the turret until the vane flips over to the other side and the steering oar swings over to the other side. This is close to my desired position. Until the wheel is connected it is really sensitive, so don't try to get it nice and stable in the centre, but catch it at a moment when it seems to be behaving before it swings off to one side again, and then attach the wheel. It is then a lot more stable. It usually needs a bit of adjustment at the wheel to lock onto the desired point of sail ... and then it just works!

So far I have only tried it close hauled in near perfect sailing conditions, so I do know what it's foibles are in less than perfect conditions, or other points of sail. Occasionally it does pinch a little high, stall the sails and can't recover, but yesterday it happily held me on the same tack for about 90 minutes

hope this helps a little.

[AmericanVagrant]

Bryan - I'm not sure the peculiarities of the Navik, but when my Fleming had difficulty returning from full deflection, it ended up being from friction in the gear. After rebuilding it (no new parts necessary, just cleaning) it worked fine. There was also misalignment at the pinion gear which required attention.

[Sailmonkey]

Our caphorn will over steer if not restrained with a bungee on the wind paddle. Call it a "gain" setting if you will.

Without this bungee the wind paddle will over react to change, thereby causing the oar to over react, causing oversteering. Oversteering leads to unintentional or unplanned gybes.

[model 10]

You can tell if the thing is jambed by moving the vane by hand back into position. You will feel the overcenter or friction etc. if it has any. Otherwise it's probably you or an adjustment.

[Ryban]

Thanks for the replies everyone. I will continue to fiddle with it. It could be a combination of the above mentioned issues, a lack of feedback from the tiller not being connected, or always suspect, my ineptitude.

I'm providing a link to the video for completeness, as I think it does a much better job then my explanation above at describing the problem:

https://youtu.be/w4gmpLfLSik

Forgive the quality, I was trying to manage the camera and the boat with only two hands.

[Sailmonkey]

Originally Posted by Ryban

Thanks for the replies everyone. I will continue to fiddle with it. It could be a combination of the above mentioned issues, a lack of feedback from the tiller not being connected, or always suspect, my ineptitude.

I'm providing a link to the video for completeness, as I think it does a much better job then my explanation above at describing the problem:

https://youtu.be/w4gmpLfLSik

Forgive the quality, I was trying to manage the camera and the boat with only two hands.

You're not hooked to the tiller!?!?!?!? of course it doesn't work!! with the tiller connected to the oar the boats motion will recenter the oar.

[Kelkara]

SOmething looks odd about the linkage that you move with your finger ... I can't quite see ... but it doesn't look as if it's transferring the control motion properly from the vane to the trim-tab.

Here's a picture of mine (also hard over to starboard) that I took while ago ... I don't know if it shows anything. I'm leaving the marina this morning so won't be able to upload anything else for a while ... hope it helps.

[Ryban]

Originally Posted by Sailmonkey

You're not hooked to the tiller!?!?!?!? of course it doesn't work!! with the tiller connected to the oar the boats motion will recenter the oar.

I understand, but I have had it connected to the tiller too, where it gets stuck in hard-deflection and then gybes or tacks the boat uncomfortably. This time I was less willing to let it throw my boat around.

Originally Posted by Kelkara

SOmething looks odd about the linkage that you move with your finger ... I can't quite see ... but it doesn't look as if it's transferring the control motion properly from the vane to the trim-tab.

Here's a picture of mine (also hard over to starboard) that I took while ago ... I don't know if it shows anything. I'm leaving the marina this morning so won't be able to upload anything else for a while ... hope it helps.

It does help. I have so few pictures/video/experience with working Naviks to know what is, and what isn't normal. I'll try to figure out why our linkages look different under full deflection.

[Kelkara]

You can see why mine was stuck hard over ... the control line had jumped off the quadrant and wasn't pulling properly ... but I don't think that's your problem.

[Ryban]

Yeah, having the lines actually connected will surely change things..

I was playing with the idea of adding a small piece of p-cord (as shown int he attached photo) to prevent the linkage from twisting downward in the fully-deflected position. This way, the vane will still be able to convert its vertical movement into a horizontal/rotational one when the paddle is hard over.

I'll give the boat a spin as soon as I fix a rigging issue and see how it goes.

[AiniA]

I am speaking from Monitor experience rather than your unit but I suspect it should be similar. If everything is set up properly, especially getting the rig balanced, the amount of steering should be fairly minimal. The only time we get the vane rudder hard over is if we have not adjusted things properly. Start with rig balance, if that is not really good you will not get anywhere. Once that is in place you want to work on adjusting the steering lines. The lines going to cleats on the tiller seems a bit coarse to me but my experience is with a wheel where we can make slight, but critical adjustments to the pull.