Why are more men into sailing than women?

[MicHughV]

It's an interesting topic....

In bygone years, my wife worked at an Auto dealership...spent time in all the various departments....and got to know the nitty gritty of the business quite well..

Fast forward a few years, I've accompanied her, a few times, to various local quick oil service places to get an oil change on her vehicle.

At each one, the service reps/mechanics (all men) tried to upsell her on a bunch of stuff she neither needed or wanted, on the assumption, that as a woman, she was clueless about automotive requirements.

A $30 oil change quickly balloons to $300. This is apparently standard modi operandi for most women that come to these places.

She tore them all to pieces with her knowledge of automobiles, that they never saw coming. Not only that, but gave them a 5 minute lecture on their bulls--t efforts to pull the wool over her eyes. She didn't need me to address them, or step in for her, she gets fired up, at times likes this, and watch out ! I would wager, they'd think twice now, before trying their upsell schpiel.

She is the same on the boat, can easily manage any task, anytime, anywhere, better than most men, I can add.

I love that woman

Sadly, we live in a world, where many jobs or occupations are typically gender specific. eg, Nurses, Daycare employees, etc, are typically women, mechanics, etc, are typically men...
I have a friend that is male nurse, he can certainly light up a conversation, with his take on a profession that is historically female.

Danica Patrick, tried as a woman, to break into the Nascar scene. This is bubba's world, and things did not go well for her...I could list many examples...

But take heart, their are many women around the globe, that have left or making their mark. World leaders, doctors, scientists, astronauts, etc, etc, and let's not forget Mother Theresa ...

It's a work in progress, the recent Vendee is a clear sign of this. The day will come, when a woman will win that race. Ellen M. came close.....

Make no mistake, women make our planet a better place !!

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by KelseyB

Agreed. The reason I share this is because, as I said, this was an experience unique to the fact that 1) I'm a woman and 2) I was the only one there. So that's where I think a lot of the disconnect can come from between genders- is that I am FAR from the only woman who has had this experience, but women don't share these experiences lightly, especially with men. So if you're a man, and you've never experienced this personally, and you've never heard it in this kind of detail because it isn't the kind of thing that just gets thrown around in casual conversation, then how would you know??? This is why I share. Because all of this milling around about hormones and crap misses the point by a mile. I share because I can when others can't or aren't comfortable doing so, so that hopefully it can be seen and at least be begun to be understood by those who have never seen or experienced it. This is why I say it's no mystery to women why more women aren't involved in sailing, because they see this crap all the time, it's just so very often hidden from view.

Sadly, this is well over 2 dozen times I’ve heard this story.

[JPA Cate]

Originally Posted by KelseyB

Another note that I withheld in my original response but am now motivated to share:

When I was restoring my boat, I was working on the hard for the better part of the summer in a marina where I was the ONLY woman there on a day to day basis. The good news is that I got the women's bathroom all to myself. The bad news is that, more than one time, I literally had to pull a knife to get a man to leave me alone. There was a semi-constant stream of male boat-owners in that marina who saw me working there, alone, as a then 20-year-old college student, and felt that that was an invitation to come up and ask me about my project. Of course, the overwhelming majority of them were very kind men who were genuinely curious, who wanted to hear my thoughts on it and who often offered me very valuable advice and whom I very much enjoyed talking with. Such is one of the things I love about the sailing community. But there was also the handful of them who far overstayed their welcome, who said things like "hey when are you gonna take ME sailing?" in that tone that EVERY woman knows, who literally followed me around the marina in their car for 20 minutes until I turned around with 911 ready to dial on my phone in one hand and a 5 inch blade in the other while I got in their face and screamed "if you don't get the f*** out of this marina in the next 30 seconds I won't hesitate". And who then RETURNED the next day to harass me again. Does this type of bs happen everywhere, and not just in sailing? Of course. But because I was the ONLY woman there, because I stood out so much and had nowhere safe to go because of the fact that there weren't any other women there, THAT is the problem.

So the next time you try to blame it on hormones, ask yourself if you have ever feared for your life because of your gender, if you have ever had to physically threaten someone to get them to leave you alone, simply because you were working on your boat. Think about what it would feel like to be the only member of your gender in a mile radius, or the only member of your race, or whatever. Think about how much more difficult that would make it to just go and get your work done, to mind your own business, to not have to remember to carry a knife with you when you go to the marina bathroom because you've needed it before.

Dale says I make sexist posts. I am so blind, I think my posts, taken as a whole, are not sexist; I also think I am not sexist: I don't get what he's trying to tell me.

Same way, in Kelsey B's report above, the guy may have told himself she "was just playing hard to get." [This sort of misunderstanding is terrifying to women, but usually we only talk about it among ourselves.]

That is how blindness to gender issues works, and part of why it is so very slow to change. Maybe the answers will change over time. I would like to think some of those other guys would come help her in the event of an attack (a possibly sexist hope on my part).

When my daughter was in high school, she and I went to a self-defense course for women, together. One of the things you have to decide for yourself is whether or not you are willing to risk killing your assailant. If you are not, your options are limited. Kelsey's confrontation worked well, thank goodness. It was extremely brave of her to not just relocate, rather than having to face such a threatening work environment--alone--every day.

It's not BS, Rob P. It is pretty common female experience. The statistics have been showing for the last 50 yrs. or so, in the US, one out of four women have been raped....and those are only the ones who will allow theirs to be counted. Raped, not merely "harassed." [The first source for this number I encountered was at a Bay Area Women Against Rape conference, in the mid 1970's.]

Ann

[BugzyCan]

It is because women are practical planners. They quickly dominate the home environment, tasking themselves with everything, while the guys sit around drinking beer and watching football.
Now the guy gets bored with football, so he buys a boat, and goes off sailing, meanwhile the wife still has all the same home responsibilities, so does not have time for it. If there are kids involved, then the wife has even more responsibilities.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by BugzyCan

It is because women are practical planners. They quickly dominate the home environment, tasking themselves with everything, while the guys sit around drinking beer and watching football.
Now the guy gets bored with football, so he buys a boat, and goes off sailing, meanwhile the wife still has all the same home responsibilities, so does not have time for it. If there are kids involved, then the wife has even more responsibilities.

This exactly the sort of stereotyping sexist crap I refer to that gets a free pass.

Comments are freely made against men and accepted as givens, I dont even think its deliberate, it's just unconscious .

Ann, I definitely didnt intend to offend, you have made it very clear in tbe past what your views are in this area. I'm not going to dig back through your posts and pick out specific examples, but as an example of what I'm getting at, below is a conversation (abbreviated)I that I recently recently had.

I had a guy say to me " we need more women world leaders, I said why? he said they make better leaders, his girlfriend friend then chirps in, look at Angela Merkel 's leadership qualities as an example", I pointed out that those qualities aren't gender based. Rather than choose female leaders or male leaders how about we choose the best leaders? , what escaped them is the sexism in their opinion, if I had of said "we need only men leaders, because men are meant to lead and are just better at it"...how would I of been judged?

The next day I saw an article in the paper "academic says men should do the shopping because they are more desisive" (something like that). I showed it to my friends, they thought is what disgusting and sexist.....they totally failed to see that it was no different to their leadership comment.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

For those of you guys who are not really tuned into it, what you may be missing is that Kelsey B is 21 yrs. old. She has heaps of sailing credibility. She is a GIRL. And still she has to battle entrenched sexism in our culture. That sexism is invisible to some men.

I have to agree that unknowledgeable men are also taken advantage of. That's partly why they ask beginner questions here, rather than at the chandlery. But with women, the whole staff assumes you know nothing whatsoever, most of the time, until they finally learn you do know what you're talking about. It can take years at one particular store, and finally you get someone trained. Or a bosun at a yacht club.

Not everything bad happens because we don't pee standing up, but a lot of it does, and any woman will be aware of it.

I'd like to thank Kelsey publicly for responding here, because old battlehorses like me are just about plumb wore out, and she will help, as a young "sister" here, some of the sexist males around here to get a more balanced point of view. It is part of an ongoing process well over a century long. It is a lifelong battle for some hugely capable women to be accepted as capable. This is probably true also for men, whether of color or white, too. But the boys club tends to shoulder out the females, ime. So the answer for the OP is that there is mixed causality, and acculturalization is prime, imo.

Still hoping more of our women get involved on this thread...

Ann

Just as you say that sexism is made up by some men ,I'd add that sexism is also made up by some women.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by Narfi

Because they grow up.(faster? at all?)

I won't argue the correlation between knitting or attending university and maturity, however they make good representations of a tangible trend.

You can argue nature or nurture or culture, but it would appear to the untrained idiot(myself) that men are more likely to dump time and money into hobbies and more 'childish' endeavors, while women are likely to have a more 'responsible' or 'mature' mindset towards the budgeting of both time and resources, esp. if/when there is even the potential for children being involved.

Simplified, men tend to be more selfish than women and very broadly speaking, 'sailing' is at its core a selfish endeavor.

Read the last paragraph " men tend to be more selfish than women???".....another free pass?

[japawil]

Originally Posted by Rob_P

Hogwash. Utterly and simply hogwash.

I teach firearms. I have both men and women in my classes. I have students who are total newbies and others who think they're Doc Holiday but aren't even close to Roy Rogers. Believe me, I've seen plenty of men who don't know how to do the simplest things and women who are better than I am at what I teach. And vice versa.

There's no "Man Gene" which makes men "more than a woman." There's no "Girl Gene" which makes a woman "less able" than a man. What there are are physical differences and mental differences which affect each individual's outlook and abilities. Good instructors and "play mates" know this and treat everyone equally to the best of their abilities and desires.

It comes down to the simple fact that the reason there are fewer women in the sailing sport is because they don't want to. Why is because they're individuals and make their own choices. Those choices aren't dictated by the fact that women wear skirts. It's because women are women and evolution has made them what they are and their choices develop from there.

Instead of celebrating that, you're trying to tell us that you believe you're treated differently merely because you're a woman. Which tells me that you're projecting your own beliefs on others. For instance, the sales people at the local marine supply store aren't "helping you" because you're a woman, they're helping you because that's their job. Part of their job is to recommend things to you in case you didn't know you needed those extra parts/pieces. Or letting you know that if you buy this one, you'll have a better outcome than if you buy that one.

It's what they get paid to do. And if they don't do it, they get crappy reviews from people who don't know what they're doing and go there needing extra help but don't get it. The bad part is that they also get crappy reviews from people with gender inspired chips on their shoulders.

All it takes it a "no thanks, I've got this" and they'll leave you alone. They'll watch just to be sure you truly do "got that" but I do the same even for those women students of mine who can outshoot me. Why? Because we don't know what we don't know and having an "expert" handy can help keep us all out of trouble.

And if you think guys don't get the sales pitch/helpful store clerk routine just like you do, you're crazy. I shoot. I shoot A LOT! and I still get the "range safety lecture" even at ranges where they know me by my first name and can recognize me even with a face mask on and my back turned.

You know why? Because everyone gets treated the same way. And if you don't like being talked to like the most newbie of the newbies, it's not the guy doing the talking who is the problem. It's you.

Wow......what color is the sky in your world?
I find it amazing how blind and wrapped up in their own “reality” some people can be.

[PirateFoxy]

Originally Posted by KelseyB

Ah but you're failing to ask WHY young girls drop out of sailing, and instead assuming that it's just because their parents pushed them to do something and as they got older they realized they didn't like it. Of course that's true in some cases. But perhaps in other cases it is their coaches placing them in crew positions while they promote their male peers to skippering positions as they move into 420s, perhaps it is their male peers making fun of them for admitting that they are cold, perhaps it is that all of their coaches are male and as the number of young girls on their team slowly dwindles, they feel as if they no longer have a community. Of course we should let women make their own choices about what they want to do; there is no shame in quitting if you hate what you're doing. But I'd hope that the reason these girls who drop out dislike sailing is simply because it's not their thing, and not because they were pushed out, because they stopped having fun when they were getting screamed at and called stupid.

It’s also around that age that girls with an interest in math and science typically back off of those, and as aspects of sailing are quite in that vein, it may be related as well - it’s when they’re told they should stop seeming too smart/competent/independent/threatening to men, and often also when there are objective changes to how teachers interact with students. (There’s been a lot of research about this in math/sciences education.)

So there’s a heck of a lot going on pushing girls and young women out of sailing at that age. (Plus it can be when family responsibilities like caregiving duties fall on the girls, which limits free time.)

As a woman in hardware I’ve had the same experience as you have, btw, with stores and tech support and so on. My first name is fairly gender-neutral so the shift is extremely noticeable when I’ve been communicating with someone online and then switch to voice or go to the shop in person - once they realize I’m not a guy they assume I don’t know what I’m doing. It’s infuriating. Same experience going to the hardware store with my SO - I’m the more handy one of the two of us and know more about materials, but almost every time the sales associate will primarily interact with my SO or defer to him, even when I’m the one asking questions and taking the lead on the conversation.

[PirateFoxy]

Originally Posted by Wotname

You sailing folk should check out the Pony Club forums; mainly inhabited by females and none of them is asking why there isn't more men in equestrian clubs (although many males are in competitive riding).

Hint - they don't care and I suspect they are happy there aren't more men in 'their' clubs.

Maybe you just aren’t on the right forums? I’ve seen extensive conversations about why there aren’t as many boys involved in English style riding (Western is much closer to 50/50 in areas where it is the dominant style) and how it can be remedied.

It also depends on the specific discipline - in addition to English vs Western there’s often more boys involved in speed events versus appearance-based events like Hunters, though there is a valid question there about if girls actually don’t like speed events or if they are discouraged from them by parents, etc. because they are perceived to be more dangerous and thus not as ‘suitable’ for girls.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by Fore and Aft

KelseyB it sounds like you struck a bad marina. Certainly there are better marina's around where you would barely get a second glance.
I have had two female clients this year. One just last week and her and I were standing in the cockpit of the yacht she was looking at buying. The guy in the yacht next to us asked if the lady was going to skipper the yacht and if she was he would put some extra fenders along his topsides! I put that misogynistic SOB in his place. I cannot believe in 2021 we are still getting attitude like that. No wonder woman are not keen on sailing.

Which leads to another elephant in the room.

Kelsey was talking about 420s and sailing for kids and young adults.

There is another aspect I can’t help but notice. The boating world is absolutely chock full of very bitter, old, divorced men. This may have a bearing on how friendly marinas are to women in general. Lots of the marina population is pretty upset after having been divorced and lost half their assets, etc. I’ve been there, after a bad breakup so I understand. But it may be a factor.

Boating is a bit of an escapist thing and a lot of people on them are just angry at the world.

[danstanford]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

Dale says I make sexist posts. I am so blind, I think my posts, taken as a whole, are not sexist; I also think I am not sexist: I don't get what he's trying to tell me.

Same way, in Kelsey B's report above, the guy may have told himself she "was just playing hard to get." [This sort of misunderstanding is terrifying to women, but usually we only talk about it among ourselves.]

That is how blindness to gender issues works, and part of why it is so very slow to change. Maybe the answers will change over time. I would like to think some of those other guys would come help her in the event of an attack (a possibly sexist hope on my part).

When my daughter was in high school, she and I went to a self-defense course for women, together. One of the things you have to decide for yourself is whether or not you are willing to risk killing your assailant. If you are not, your options are limited. Kelsey's confrontation worked well, thank goodness. It was extremely brave of her to not just relocate, rather than having to face such a threatening work environment--alone--every day.

It's not BS, Rob P. It is pretty common female experience. The statistics have been showing for the last 50 yrs. or so, in the US, one out of four women have been raped....and those are only the ones who will allow theirs to be counted. Raped, not merely "harassed." [The first source for this number I encountered was at a Bay Area Women Against Rape conference, in the mid 1970's.]

Ann

You certainly are not sexist Ann. Your input is valuable and well thought out on all topics and it seems you only chime in when you have something to say.
I always look forward to your input.

[Fore and Aft]

Chotu you bring up what I believe is the number one reason why women are not into sailing. I didn't say it before as I did not feel like getting roasted. But I am on a lot of boats and a fair percentage are owned by bitter, divorced men with varying degrees of hygiene. It always makes me wonder where do the bitter divorced woman go in this world?
There has been a slow increase of couples and women since YouTube has highlighted the lifestyle which is good to see. But we have a long way to go before there are lots of women owning cruising yachts.
Cheers

[carstenb]

My wife wrote this a couple of years ago - worth a read as it addresses exactly this question

https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...-i-180999.html

[LittleWing77]

Originally Posted by Tayana42

KelseyB, thank you for this open firsthand response. It is clear that thousands of years of men dominating women, owning them, trading their daughters for land or peace, not allowing them to have access to weapons or education or jobs has a lasting impact on the roles and positions of women in society. Isn’t it amazing how recently women were not allowed to vote? Is there any surprise that social attitudes take a long time to change particularly when so many men are still blaming the inequality on women’s hormones instead of accepting that the blame should be on the men that controlled or limited women for so long and in many ways still do. Yes things are getting better but there is still a long way to go. Equal rights, equal pay, equal access are still aspirations for most women.

Originally Posted by KelseyB

Thank you for this. If it weren't for people making the "hormone" argument, I may not have even bothered saying anything because it so often falls on deaf ears, but that one is just too absurd to leave unaddressed. It's an argument that is bordering on how terrible the arguments used to be about race as something biological.

I don't even want to invoke the word "blame," that makes people shut down and get defensive, and I don't want a battle of the sexes, I want learning and growth.

But if someone asks a question about women's experiences, and then proceeds to gaslight them and claim that their experiences are invalid because that's not what they wanted to hear as the honest answer, why did they even ask the question in the first place?

+1

As a Yachtmaster and lifelong woman sailor, I've experienced everything Kelsey relates. (except, Kelse, imagine being on an offshore passage with the guy you want to pull the knife on...)

As a sailing instructor, one of the main things I do is create a safe space for the *woman* (usually couples) to learn. Key elements are not only sailing, but all the tricks I've learned over the years of how to easily manipulate heavy things such as sails and the boat itself, so it won't matter if the woman or man is completing a task.

LittleWing77