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Old 15-11-2011, 07:49   #46
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Re: Where Has My Thinking Gone Wrong ?

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Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
Exactly.
I am fitting out in a parking lot and if I have a three-hour window to do some tasks, I spend 20 minutes pushing tools, gear and supplies around, two hours doing the job, and then 30-60 minutes cleaning up...more if I'm painting.

There's hardly time for a beer, man!
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Old 15-11-2011, 08:19   #47
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Re: Where Has My Thinking Gone Wrong ?

Probably won't work well because the market has declined for buying and selling but not for materials and haulout.

Let's say the boat price doubles with rehab, and rehab cost $10k.

When you could buy the boat for $20k and sell it for $40k, you came out $10k ahead.

Prices have declined. Getting the boat for $10k and selling it for $20k you break even.

Same boat different market conditions. And that assumes a very quick turnaround. Yard or slip fees will eat up your profits if you can't unload the boat promptly. And in this market nothing is moving fast.
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Old 15-11-2011, 08:34   #48
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Re: Where Has My Thinking Gone Wrong ?

you forgot one thing. what's the ramifications of one of your fixer uppers not selling at any price much less what you need/want to get out of her?
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Old 15-11-2011, 10:16   #49
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Re: Where Has My Thinking Gone Wrong ?

Well if anymore negative response were still needed. I'll add this observation. Boats are pretty personal. I've seen where folks have put their heart and soul into 'improving' their boat but it was done in such a unique fashion that few others would want to pay for a boat with unique improvements.

If you do go ahead with the plan, keep your refurbishing to the basics, hull, engine, plumbing, cosmetics. Don't spend time on fancy stuff or on extra equipment which won't bring in a fair return on your investment dollars and time.
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Old 15-11-2011, 10:52   #50
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Re: Where Has My Thinking Gone Wrong ?

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Well if anymore negative response were still needed. I'll add this observation. Boats are pretty personal. I've seen where folks have put their heart and soul into 'improving' their boat but it was done in such a unique fashion that few others would want to pay for a boat with unique improvements.

If you do go ahead with the plan, keep your refurbishing to the basics, hull, engine, plumbing, cosmetics. Don't spend time on fancy stuff or on extra equipment which won't bring in a fair return on your investment dollars and time.
Like mine!

I've got 10 years and 3 - 4 time$ of what I paid for it, into it. But I'll not sell, unless someone were to walk up and make an offer that would put me in a larger boat (completed).

Mine was almost abandoned when I found it. Evereything was striped off/out and all replaced, a little at a time over the years. But now it's built to accommodate my own taste and handicaps, which others may not like.

The only way I could have lived aboard would have been to build a tent under the boat while on the hard. Between summer proof runs the boat was always a mess. When the boat was NOT in the water, all cushions and supplies were remove to keep them clean. The whole inside of the boat top to bottom had to be vacuumed and wiped down with wet towels. Fiberglass dust sticks to everything.

I could have bought (now) what I have for $60k, but in a factory condition, minus all the labor and years. I'm sure I have much more then that into it by now. But this boat is MY creation, to fit my needs/wants and not likely to sell for a long time.

I can boast and say I've always made a profit or broke even on all my boats. But those were the old days, NOT in todays market.
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Old 15-11-2011, 16:48   #51
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Re: Where Has My Thinking Gone Wrong ?

I've read the thread but I might've missed something. are you debt free? if not, pay off your debts first and then save. then devote every penny to achieving your goals.
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Old 15-11-2011, 17:40   #52
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Re: Where Has My Thinking Gone Wrong ?

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I have a plan, and it seems soooooo simple. That is why I am assuming I must be missing something.

I want to get into sailing, but I am not a rich man. So here is the plan:
None of these relies has mentioned the above highlighted quote. You want to get into sailing, which implies you don't know how to operate a sailboat yet. My very experienced advisor, knowing my final goal (which is very similar to yours) has advised me that aside from the financials, there is a huge learning curve in going from small sailboats to 40 footers.

That's why I started with a 20 footer with no electric, winches, boom vang, traveler, genoa, spinnaker, etc., and then jumped up to a Catalina 22 with a few more systems to understand and manage. After a year or two more I'll move up to 26-27 footer with inboard diesel, charging systems, many more sails, etc.

Each jump will give me more knowledge and a better feel for what I need in the next boat. After the 27' I'll make the move to a 30+ livaboard.

I expect to lose money all along the way. The 20 footer that I got for $825 w/ Doyle sails and a Honda 5hp; that I added 2 winches, a bow railing, and lazy jacks to, I can't give away for $1200. I'll probably have to sell it for under a grand just to get it out of my driveway. The same for the Catalina 22 I'm now sailing and refiting. I'll have put 2 grand into it on top of the 2 grand I paid for it, and be lucky to sell it in 2 years for $1500.

But I see the money as the cost of my education in sailing and sailboat maintenence. The things I learn to do now, on an inexpensive boat that is sailed in safe, protected waters where I can swim to any of the 4 shores if need be, may someday keep me alive when there's nothing but sea as far as I can see.

I strongly disagree with those who say you can "jump" from no sailboat to a 40 footer. That advice is coming from people that have likely grown up sailing dinghys, and 22s, for a long time before buying a 40' "first boat".

Your experience and rating as a ship's Captain will be invaluable to you, but with 650 sq ft of sail, I'd wanna know thru experience EXACTLY what to do when when the wind unexpectedly goes from 15kts to 45kts. When the sails hit the water in that 22 footer, you'll learn a lesson and live to sail another day. Probably the same for the 40 footer, but the dismasting will be much less expensive to repair.

But, maybe I'm wrong, and will have wasted a lot of money.
YMMV
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Old 15-11-2011, 18:07   #53
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Re: Where Has My Thinking Gone Wrong ?

The OP's plan is exactly how I went from a 28' wooden sloop to my present floating gin palace in 20 years. I think some people posting here are looking at the proposition wrong, there seems to be a lot of concern that you will not make money on each sale. I probably lost money on every boat I ever sold, but they were leverage for me. I traded up with my previous boat as a down payment twice. It's not about making money, quite the opposite. It was a great way for me to combine sweat equity with what money I had to provide a replacement for large lump sum payments in the form of a trade-in. I did a lot of hard work in the process, which I probably didn't get paid a fair wage for; but I also did a lot of sailing on a number of different boat styles and had a lot of fun. And I learned a lot. My first boat cost me $1700. My present boat I have a little over $350k in to. So it can work. But probably not for everyone...
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Old 15-11-2011, 18:42   #54
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Re: Where Has My Thinking Gone Wrong ?

This is another alternative to get that boat - One red paperclip - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sorry
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Old 16-11-2011, 03:13   #55
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Re: Where Has My Thinking Gone Wrong ?

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But I see the money as the cost of my education in sailing and sailboat maintenence.
And by the time you want / need "the boat" a fair chance you will get that money back - either by knowing what you are looking at (and paying accordingly) or simply by not buying someone else's problems

The big question is.......... have you been having fun?
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Old 16-11-2011, 10:55   #56
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Of course you can do it. If you are willing to live aboard at a boat yard. You can usually find people to show you the skills you will need or ask here. Go for the boat you want to end up with. If you choose wisely you can get your money back out of it. Now i have to tell you honestly most people get way over their head in their talents and pockets. But if you have the patience, time, and skill you can do it.
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Old 16-11-2011, 13:31   #57
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Re: Where Has My Thinking Gone Wrong ?

I'll endorse Gorilla Toast's advice as a sound way to "get in to sailing". The general idea of a novice being able to actually turn a profit on flipping boats is naive. Minaret's story above doesn't mention that he is a shipwright actively engaged in the marine industry, which gives him a completely different set of circumstances than a novice boater who doesn't even know how to sail. (Forgive me if that interpretation of the OP is wrong, BTW).

Cheers,

Jim
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Old 16-11-2011, 17:05   #58
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I think the OP did say he had several yrs experience captaining large commercial ships, just none at the helm of a sailboat. To me that would be like the difference between knowing how to drive a car to the supermarket, and driving an eighteen-wheeler thru the city to the supermarket.

They both have wheels and turn, but their systems are really different, and the bigger vehicle needs to have its systems understood well by the operator.
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Old 16-11-2011, 17:29   #59
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Re: Where Has My Thinking Gone Wrong ?

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Old 16-11-2011, 17:52   #60
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Re: Where Has My Thinking Gone Wrong ?

I would bet you could pick up a 39 or 40 Bristol for under 30K . Don't waste your skills on smaller boats you will get stuck with.
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