Wheels. Why so large? Why two?

[skenn_ie]

When I started out from Essex in the UK, my steering was 12 turns stop to stop. That was hard work, esp when parking. It is now about 5.
I love the canting pedestal.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by leftbrainstuff

The large wheels make no sense other than trying to emulate a racer look.

So there we have it: a dichotomy. Either you like to sail and you like to steer and you want to use a wheel which allows you to steer and see where you are going and feel what the boat is doing or you don't give a damn about any of these things and a steering wheel is just something that gets in the way.

I get it, we cannot talk to each other because we have a different language.

[LEOCAT66]

I stand by my positions. I am a student of the Pardey School of proven seamanship. Tried and true methods which have been proven over and over, time and time again, by many old school sailors. I love to sail the boat and feel each change. We use no auto pilot at all, and our traditional design sails on and on, without continually touching the tiller. Sometime we tie of the tiller and use bungee cord, on certain points of sail, but this is rare. We even have time to go below to fix coffee etc. No, it is not perfect, it is old, but then again so are we.


I have sailed many more modern designs over the years and find most to be quicker to accelerate, and point closer, and on the short term, fun boats. Most newer monos go to weather well, but seem lighter and while doing so have a tendency to pound, and have little ability to hold a course without an auto pilot or wind vane.


Were we to replace "ROSA" we would probably choose a Cape George 36 cutter, or a Hans Christian type in the same length, both heavy, full keel, sea kindly motion, traditional choices. Large enough to go wherever without the need for, help, gadgets and excess electronics. KISS.


Let us agree to disagree. Keep it civil.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by LEOCAT66

Let us agree to disagree

I have no disagreement with you. I don't know about other commenters but I don't. In fact I like all boats which are really sailboats, including yours.

You have your preferences and have mine, but we both have tillers and enjoy using them. I'd call you a "sailor" and that is a good thing. I do wonder, however, if that helm, with it's unbalanced rudder, doesn't get heavy and a bit tiring after a while in stronger breezes. How would you manage a long passage shorthanded without any help steering. I've used a bungie cord, it still requires attention off the wind.

I'd recommend a windvane. My grandfather, (definitely "old school" prior to 1900), used lines from the jib and main sheets to pull the tiller one way or the other, as the balance shifted. Myself, I use a monitor windvane, (or an autohelm, if there is no wind).

[jannw]

It's not the size of the wheel, but the ability of the helmsman to see the headsail telltales when closehauled that makes the difference!

The bigger the boat, the further outboard the helmsman needs to be to sail the telltales.

Of course, if you put the autopilot on, it doesn't make a difference. And if your focus is on cruising rather than sailing, then it also doesn't matter.

But if you want to sail your tank like it's a dinghy ... you need to see those telltales ... so you need to be outboard.

Hence, twin wheels, or a big wheel.

[WildcatF18]

Some like to helm especially upwind. Some like to always ride along. Seeing waves, the sails and things around the vessel are enhanced sitting near the rail to windward plus leeward as mentioned. That is why racing sailors use tiller extensions, twin wheels and large wheels. Also as pointed out feeling the helm forces are important including for proper sail plan balance. Most sailing including coastal cruising is shorter distance and more about the sailing than the destination. I have over 10,000 open ocean miles mostly in the southern ocean and used the autopilot a lot even in big winds and waves. More often I am sailing shorter passages and helming a lot for the joy of feeling and sailing a Trintella 55.

[mglonnro]

I learned to sail (or at least to love the sea) in an H-boat with a tiller and a tiller extension.

In my home harbour, in the spot next to mine, there was a Dehler 36 with a steering wheel. It was so cool!

So a few years later when I was looking for my next boat, the most important thing I wanted was that steering wheel. And the boat I bought was a Dehler 34

I think a lot of things sailing are somewhat directly related to the meaning of life

[richr]

Horses for courses guys. No need for all the backchat. Here's my opinion and you are all welcome to yours; there are valid pros and cons and they have been clearly stated.

Personally, I like the modern designs but not the extreme ones. Modern sailboat design has evolved so you get more form stability (including crew weight) and therefore sail carrying power without the extra weight you'd have to chuck at the keel. That's where the extra beam comes from on racers. The main reason it is carried aft is that modern racers like TP52 spend a heap of time on the plane and with the apparent wind forward (as opposed to surfing deep downwind), so they need the crew weight aft as well as outboard, while still using form stability to balance heeling moment from those massive close-winded assymetrics.

On cruisers, the impetus is more about space below. It's good for us sailors that you can get three decent double-berths in 35 foot or whatever; don't knock it. The world in which you needed 45 feet to sleep six comfortably was not, in this regard, a better one.

All this has been made possible by significant improvements in technology, so deeper keels and taller masts can withstand the strain of extra righting moment.

Is there significant downside in terms of final stability? In theory yes. But I believe this is mitigated by (1) a greater proportion of modern yachts only do daysailing anyway; owners are tending towards designs that suit that (2) weather forecasts are way better than they were (3) the boats are faster - much faster - and also better mannered in a following sea, so we're much better equipped to run away from the the worst of a storm if caught in the open (4) we're much more knowledgeable and better prepared for extreme weather in terms of drogues, sea anchors and simply boats that don't leak.

Also I am sceptical of the seakeeping ability of classics. I fully appreciate the theory - but you only have to read Adlard Coles great tome "heavy weather sailing", particularly the early chapters, to see the struggles he had in weather that many of us would just shrug off today.

Classic devotees may rightly say we are all exposing ourselves to a disaster next time there's a 79 Fastnet...and I agree, we are all taking that risk in some form when we go far offshore. I think we are as well or better placed for the above reasons.

So....because we have wider boats, many of us prefer bigger wheels or twin wheels. I am a racing sailor myself; I prefer to steer not use the autopilot (because I have to run the engine to do so); I like a big wheel. I like the visibility and ability to steer from the sides. I like that if I want more "feel" in light airs it's as simple as holding the wheel on the spokes, nearer the centre. I accept the trade-off of cockpit space.

[LittleWing77]

As WingsSail said,

I, too, can testify that big wheels have an incredibly sexy feel in a large boat under sail. My experience with them, however, was on high-end, fully kitted out race boats with carbon fiber everything. My trip across the South Pacific was tiller steering and since then I've been more often on a tiller than a wheel.

For cruising, I'm now firmly in the tiller minority, but for wheel steering, in the case where it's appropriate for the boat, the feel of a light, large wheel is unequalled.

Warmly, Little Wing

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by richr

Also I am sceptical of the seakeeping ability of classics. I fully appreciate the theory - but you only have to read Adlard Coles great tome "heavy weather sailing", particularly the early chapters, to see the struggles he had in weather that many of us would just shrug off today.

And one should take a look at the Golden Globe racers haveing a time of it now.

[Dr. D]

Another point of view: My wife has developed mobility issues. Getting around a standard single wheel while underway was getting difficult. (A folding wheel only helps in the slip.) With a two wheel configuration she is able to move easily about the cockpit. Screw the racer vs cruiser vs fashion religious wars. If two wheels make it possible for my wife to enjoy sailing they are great.

[goboatingnow]

Hans Christian type in the same length, both heavy, full keel, sea kindly motion, traditional choices

funny though that the well known cruising legends like cornell , goss etc are all using aluminium centre boards and hulls of modern design . Just saying

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Leo Ticheli

I am very fond of twin wheels for all the reasons others have mentioned, and especially since twin helms makes the cockpit seem much more spacious and eases moving to the sugar scoop swim platform. We spend a lot of time getting into and out of the water.

I do consider the lack of dual engine controls a stupid oversight, probably a cost-saving side effect; I have to dock at the starboard helm, even when I could see better from port, because the lever is starboard only.

I wonder if anyone has added engine controls to the other side?

Fair winds,

Leo

the problem with integrated throttle and gearbox levers is if you have dual station , control can only be transferred from one lever to the other with one in neutral, this makes quick transfers problematic

[goboatingnow]

Most cruisers we see with two helm stations at the stern arrive wet and tired into port. I can understand the appeal of two stations for a racing boat but for a cruising boat it is just plain stupidity. What on earth possessed the manufactures of these boats to put a steering station in the wettest part of the boat?

clearly teh main reason is both traditional as the wheel has traditionally near the rudder post. Secondly it allows a simple mechanical arrangement

but the main reason is to have bulkhead mounted steering ( which many sailors dont like) is you need a wide bulkhead , which isnt typical available in under 50 feet , interferes with lines led aft ( we cant all afford $1million AMels with electric furling ) , and requires an offset companionway , which may builders feels compromises safety if the cockpit fills

These days with modern autopilots , it doesn't really matter where the wheel(s) is ( are)

in the only other mainstream boat I know with bulkhead steering , which is the Beneteau 57 CC. There was the option of either bulkhead or pedestal , most buyers selected pedestal interestingly to a point where Beneteau never bothered again with Bulkhead steering