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Old 03-12-2009, 06:53   #31
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Lake Superior , you say "we should go and rebuild their country". Who exactly do you mean by "we" ? And looking at Somalia closely , do you honestly think that that is possible? Dream on , imagine all the people....
Consider that we (the US and some UN countries) should be getting pretty good at nation building. We have the experience. Right now we have two ambitious nation rehab projects going strong.

BTW, I've found difficulty in communicating sarcasm on occasion.
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Old 03-12-2009, 09:46   #32
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the drawback to that is that it doesn't take the pirates off the board. If you build a better mousetrap, they'll just evolve into being better mice. Unless they suddenly stop evolving.
Yep...And grenade launchers can out reach a water canon...ships aren't getting boarded by knife in teeth pirates anymore.
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Old 03-12-2009, 09:52   #33
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LakeSuperior-Great idea...we have shown time and time again that we have the expertise for nation building.
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Old 03-12-2009, 10:08   #34
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"ships aren't getting boarded by knife in teeth pirates anymore. "
Don't you hate the way kids have no respect left for traditions any more?

Steve-
You are aware that the official story was that they took the shot because a) conditions were perfect b) one pirate was out of action for medical help and c) they thought the pirates were going to start executing captives at that immediate time.
SEAL teams only run out of patience when some clerk in a 7-11 says "I'm sorry sir, we can't sell beer until noon on Sundays, and it is only 11:55 now."
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Old 04-12-2009, 09:59   #35
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For now oil transports will remain unarmed. Seems silly to start a shooting war when you sit on top of a a bomb. A large super tanker with 30 crew is IMPOSSIBLE to defend without fully automated weapons systems and advanced radar. To support a level of defense that could stop a shoulder fired grenade at close range does not technologically exist. It didn't work for the USS Cole either. For now a cheap personal weapon can stop a super tanker. They only need one close shot to cause total destruction. On the reverse the ship needs the luckiest shot ever made. It took days for the sharp shooters to get a clear shoot to kill the hostage takers and save the hostage. Very nice work, but it takes that long.
Sure it does.

You have touched on my point exactly....With a 20mm rapid fire canon mounted each side mid ship on every commercial vessel including cruise ships ...what attacks would there be on any on them by any but the suicidal? And these guys aren't that... they are just learning the easy targets and one sucess builds to another.

Apart from my obvious stance to defend ones life with lethal force if needed..I really am against killing people...this Idea to require this kind of weaponry is really about an idea on not having to ever fire them..

Sort of the bigger stick theory...yes a strafe across their bow path at first will be required till they get the message that nobody is left outgunned anymore...but soon it will be a dead end of employment for them.

But this would have to be an across the board "all in" thing for it to be the deterrent it should be...this is why I'm advocating for a maritime law making it so for that area...If a commercial ship Co. wants to pass through they have to buck up with the gear or face blockades themselves.

Right now were just hanging out bacon for the racoon's...we simply need to remove the bacon and they quit coming around...the most humane and peaceful approach there is...no one dies no one gets hurt..its all good.

At the rate it is now escalation is inevitable as they get the money to purchase the likes of 20 mm cannons themselves..hence my premise that allowing this to continue any longer is criminal in its own right.
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Old 04-12-2009, 10:42   #36
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"To support a level of defense that could stop a shoulder fired grenade at close range does not technologically exist. It didn't work for the USS Cole either."
Let's not forget that the Cole was a human failure, a command failure, and a political failure--but protecting the ship was not at all impossible. The Captain had his standing orders, he knew they were improper but that's what came down from the top.
"Establish a perimeter" has been part of Military Strategy & Tactics 101 since the Roman Legions, and you can bet the captain would have established a sufficiently wide perimeter, and attacked anything that crossed it, if he had been IN CHARGE rather than under orders.

There would be a certain karmic justice if the owners of a hostage oil tanker, brought into a Somalian port, called in an air strike and let the Somali's have their own Exxon Valdez to deal with. Umpity million gallons of crude in what used to be your home port, and a huge wreck blocking what used to be the harbor.

Sooner or later, they'll run out of ports and harbors.
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Old 04-12-2009, 11:39   #37
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Pretty interesting idea Hello, but I don't think a certain segment of our society would allow for the pollution of the Somalian home waters.

I think it sure would make them think twice about taking a ship if they know it might get blown up in their faces becoming this huge problem for them. Talk about turning a perceived asset into a huge liability with one cruise missile. I got a chuckle out of the idea...not because its a bad idea. I could just imagine their reaction to their new problem. Its pretty funny in fact.
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Old 04-12-2009, 11:54   #38
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I recently sent this to Homeland Security publication that had a discussion on the pirate issue in Africa:

"As I read the sidebar "Preparing for piracy" (November 2009, page 36-37) I recalled several recent articles similar to yours in other publications. Authors write on and on filling pages with all types of theories and an occasional case study. The short-term solution to piracy off the coast of Somalia is simple: Armed escorts. Not armed with water cannons or sonic wave devices, but armed with trained operators with heavy automatic weapons and go-fast boats. This type of intervention will stop the pirates from victimizing the crews of all types of vessels. We cannot let these thugs terrorize the shipping industry. They are violent criminals and must be treated as such. Yes, the pirates are young, poor, hungry and ill equipped, but none of that matters. We must respond to their behavior and the threat they pose to the crews of the ships that are attacked.

Long-term solutions are much more complicated and will require multinational land and sea based operations as well as private security contractors. Unfortunately, with the state of the Somalia government, and in reality that of the whole Continent of Africa, violence of action may be part of the long-term solution as well. But, it will also need to include humanitarian action and a transformation of Somalia. That, I am afraid, is many years away."

[The author is a current law enforcement officer and private security consultant with over 22 years of experience.]
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Old 04-12-2009, 12:08   #39
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"
There would be a certain karmic justice if the owners of a hostage oil tanker, brought into a Somalian port, called in an air strike and let the Somali's have their own Exxon Valdez to deal with. Umpity million gallons of crude in what used to be your home port, and a huge wreck blocking what used to be the harbor.

Sooner or later, they'll run out of ports and harbors.
So we make the fishing problem even worse for the 99.9% of the Somali population thatís just trying to get from one day to the next!

I did a couple tours in Somalia in the early 90s and I can tell you that by far most of the population are just like you and me.........except taller!

A safe corridor isnít going to be easy to maintain but may be possible.
I've spent some time on the island of Myun in the Straights of Babble Mendes (sp) and I can tell you its a steady stream of ships passingÖso the convoy idea may be tough.
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Old 04-12-2009, 18:24   #40
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Well, I do not think there are many who would like to go and kill Somali people. It is not about Somali people, it is about the s.c. Somali government & Somali pirates.

So, outside of "their" waters - why not just use the military in place to attack anybody who attacks international cargo / sailing / fishing boats? I do not think they have unlimited supply of boats nor a thriving shipbuilding industry, do they. Just sink stem (b*s) and you will scare some and incapacitate the rest. For a long while.

The pirates would get their deserves, the military would get their training, the cargo / sailing / fishing people could pass safely.

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Old 04-12-2009, 20:03   #41
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I think this is a bigger probelm than many people realize. Remember that militant muslim group that was the defacto government in Somalia a year ago or so, until moderate forces funded by Ethiopia thrashed them in a series of battles? A recent report by the Canadian Security Intelligence Service says that this group, Al-Shabab, is training the pirates & arming them. They then split the ransom. This is the next Al-Qaida, the next Taliban. It would be a lot easier to deal with them now than it will be in 5 years, when they've gathered enough ransom money to reclaim Mogadishu & mount some serious terrorist attacks against (insert random Western nation here).

Somali militants training pirates
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Shabaab_(Somalia)
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Old 04-12-2009, 20:12   #42
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"I did a couple tours in Somalia in the early 90s and I can tell you that by far most of the population are just like you and me.........except taller!" I don't know about that, James. If most of the population is like you and me, and you are like me, we wouldn't tolerate pirates operating out of our town.

Some people make and build civilized societies, however you define "civilized".

Besides, if we spilled all the oil and tarred all the beaches and killed all the fish, all the bleeding hearts here in the US would immediately start hiring the survivors to clean the beaches and degrease the birds, providing the thriving local economy and employment that they are so selfishly not giving the Somalies now.

When the box is empty and everyone refuses to think outside of the box...they're gonna come up empty every time. A situation like Somalia needs triage, and that means both saving and killing at the same time, with the same action. Not an ideal solution, but it beats all hell out of the empty box.
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Old 04-12-2009, 23:00   #43
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" If most of the population is like you and me, and you are like me, we wouldn't tolerate pirates operating out of our town.

.

Near the end of the 2006 Lebanon/Israel war we started running out of petrol in the market....lines were 20 cars long.
Invariably some one would cut in the line.
It amazed me that EVERY TIME no one would say anything!
It would always be me who confronted them and have them go to the back of the lineÖ.which they always did with no problem.

Then I'd give the person they cut in front of a hard time for not saying anything.
You know what they would say "I donít want any trouble"
These are people who spent years in a civil (more like gang) war.
It just wasnít worth it for them to stir the pot over someone cutting in the line.

I would venture to say that most of the population is not like you and I,
As for the second part of the quote...many might say that we do tolerate much worse.
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Old 04-12-2009, 23:20   #44
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Invariably some one would cut in the line.

It amazed me that EVERY TIME no one would say anything!

I'd give the person they cut in front of a hard time for not saying anything.

They would say "I don’t want any trouble"


It just wasn’t worth it for them to stir the pot over someone cutting in the line.
That there sounds like a good understanding of the real world outside of the Halo 2 "I got a big gun that will solve all my problems" that far too many seem to cling to. Good on ya...

I can say for certain that the rather minimal Somali pirate problem has had, and will have, exactly zero effect on my life. Certainly no where near enough effect to consider indescriminate slaughter of fellow humans. I strongly suspect my experience is also EXACTLY the same as 99.999% of all the gung ho shoot em up types as well. It's easy to get comfortable with killing that which ya self justify as not human. I'm more scared of THOSE plentiful folks, than I am of a few dozen pirates. There are millions of THOSE. There are only a few dozen pirates. What's the really scary bunch? The dozens or millions?
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Old 05-12-2009, 13:29   #45
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Hard to get them out of your town when they are the only ones with the guns...

FWIW...This is my main premises for maintaining a right to bear arms in my country.

We should all look at this BBC video again...the locals don't want the pirates around either but seem held hostage or at least used as a human shield themselves...and you want to blow them up?

Darn..cant find it i will keep looking...but it is actual footage talking with village inhabitants and a couple fishermen on there plight having to live with the pirates presence...if someones knows the one im refering please post it for me..Thanks.
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