Sailboat Manufacturing History

[pcmm]

Originally Posted by Geek_Guy

PCMM,

Wow that's pretty harsh, and I'd humbly point out that it's probably not accurate. Though there were some exemptions. I remember one model that was underbuilt and stressed. But would imagine most companies that have been in business for over 50 years have had a bad apple or two.

But just take the Legend series There are hundreds of them still in use some 30 years later. I don't know of many Cavaliers still on the road. Is it a fabulous boat, probably not. But still not bad looking and functional. I know there is a strong following with people for the Cheribini's. They are several years older but seem a strong solid boat.

My specific Hunter has cruised from Jacksonville FL, through the Panama canal to Alaska and back 3 times. Still a solid decent boat.

Dave

The cherubini Hunters were great boats, but when Hunter switched to inhouse design it all "went to pot" for a number of years. The Legend boats are the poster child for this. Still nice looking modern boats, but alot of sketchy design and workmanship during the beginning of their inhouse phase. There were alot of years when Hunters were even cheaper than catalinas. Its a reputation ( rightly or wrongly) that Hunter has never been able to shake. they tend to over come it by offering a hell of alot of boat for the money (their margins must be razor thin compared to some of the others)

[rbk]

Originally Posted by TooCoys

So is it better to look for designers than it is to look for manufacturers?

No, a good design is one thing but build quality is the final decider and even this can vary greatly with DIY interiors. You can have a solid hull and design but a DIY interior that is completely nonfunctional and terrible quality to borderline dangerous (missing structural bulkheads fro example). The other side is good designs being built in backyards, not to say they cant be of good to exceptional quality, but can again vary greatly. Not to single any one designer out, but there is one in particular that I swear they were giving away free boat designs with the purchase of every McDonald's Big Mac, and a huge portion were built in backyards. Even heard of some people finding old designs in attics and garages then 'tacking a crack at it". this might be ok for the owner build, but not so much down the road when its sold to someone expecting an ocean going vessel.

[Cheechako]

There were plenty of production designers. Maybe the best starting place to investigate boats is sailboatdata. com you can search by builder or designer or name brand. Molds are expensive to make so many molds moved from company to company when one goes out of business. There are often subtle changes to the deck or hull when that occurs. Boat building companies die fast when a recession hits as they are a luxury item.
Some designs are better than others and some are just plain bad too, although it's not that common.

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by Sailmonkey

The only way to gain this knowledge is to see a boat you like and begin to research its lineage.

Very astute observation. Very good points in the other responses which explain why cars and boats are different.

There are a number of ways to learn. Google is your friend in this regard. Why? Because it will begin, I say BEGIN, to expose you to the RESOURCES you'll need to obtain your answer(s).

A search will uncover a lot of previously asked questions, but will also identify owners groups, who usually know more about their boats than the builders sometimes! Many production boats have owners associations who have their own websites. Like ours! Here's an example:

Tech Wiki – Catalina 34 International Association

Not all of the boats have this extensive information, but many do.

Other boating forums also have subgroups of owners who don't have their own websites. www.sailboatowners.com has an active Cherubini group.

YOU have to do the homework and research.

Good luck.

[ctl411]

Originally Posted by TooCoys

Why are sailboats so hard to follow, or learn? Its not like Ford or Chevy. You cant exactly trace the Mustang of sailboats back to a 1964 model. It also seems confusing because there is usually subsets of models within a manufacturers line.

For instance, because its all I know, there are Hunters, but then there are the Cherubini designed Hunters.

It also seems that there are only a few major brands of sail boats in the US, that "mass" produced boats. Off the top of my head I can think of Hunter, Catalina, Oday, McGregor, Pearson, and maybe a few others. The rest of what I read about seem to be short run makes with only a few models made.

How do you determine who is the "luxury" sedans and who is the "economy" cars of the sail boat world? And in the grand scheme of things, how much does a designers name play into things? Are the Cherubini Hunters better built than the Hunters of later years?

You have one of the closest boat equivalent to Ford/Chevy. Not a bad thing by the way. Tons of information on the forum mentioned. It will get you anywhere the BMW,Range Rover... equivalent will size for size.
The Cherubini vs. later question, it depends on model.
Example the 34 that replaced the 33 had a iron keel.
The Cherubini also have inward deck flange not so on some later models.
Try not to get hung up on which boat is best. The best boat is the one that suits 'your" purpose or dream of purpose.

[Geek_Guy]

The equivalent group for Hunters is: hunterowners.com

Very active informative group. Also the site is sponsored by an equipment supplier in the NW. There is great information on the site. Like specs for all the Hunter boats, pictures, and owner updates.

Sorry PCMM but I still don't agree with your assessment. I've had 3 Catalina's and a Newport. All decent solid though not outstanding sailboats. My Hunter Legend is IMHO an equal and decent option. I've redone and installed new options on most systems and have found nothing that I find is substandard or slipshod.

[pcmm]

Originally Posted by Geek_Guy

The equivalent group for Hunters is: hunterowners.com

Very active informative group. Also the site is sponsored by an equipment supplier in the NW. There is great information on the site. Like specs for all the Hunter boats, pictures, and owner updates.

Sorry PCMM but I still don't agree with your assessment. I've had 3 Catalina's and a Newport. All decent solid though not outstanding sailboats. My Hunter Legend is IMHO an equal and decent option. I've redone and installed new options on most systems and have found nothing that I find is substandard or slipshod.

I think the biggest knock against the "Legend" series at the time were the Iron keels, Outward turned hull deck joint (read easily damaged but easy to manufacture) "Systems" don't really make up build quality. I'm thinking more of the glass lay up, design details, . the things you can't easily fix. Iron keels are just a pain in the ...to deal with, bad idea but saves a lot of money in manufacture . Outward turned hull flanges are really inexpensive at manufacture as 1 person can install the joint, not 2. etc. All boats from this time have lots of issues. Heck my Morgan OI 41, has lots of issues. I don't think there is a single piece of marine grade ply in my whole boat! In fact I know that my bulkheads are all Exterior ply as I discovered a piece with the stamp still visible! but then who's to argue, all the bulkheads have lasted nearly 40 years so...

[Island Time O25]

Originally Posted by Sailmonkey

The only way to gain this knowledge is to see a boat you like and begin to research its lineage.

That's exactly what I did before I got my first boat. While the asking price was very attractive (and got more attractive as time went on) it needed work and I wanted to make sure the boat had good enough bones to make my effort worthwhile.

[hafa]

Boats with large production runs have a few advantages:

1. Parts and information (in the form of other owner's experience) are generally more readily available than for smaller production boats.
2. Original manuals and other documentation is generally more easily accessible in digital format, as owners often scan these materials and make them available online.
3. Standing rigging can be accurately made by a chandler without having to send in the existing rig.

As far as the Hunter Legend line goes, after 24 years of sailing through heavy winds and seas to the Northern Islands and surviving 21 typhoons, including direct hits from Keith, Chaba and Soudelour, our 40.5 qualifies as solid, IMHO.

[Geek_Guy]

While I am under no delusion that my Hunter is to be named one of the best manufactured sailboats in history.

Per PCMM: I think the biggest knock against the "Legend" series at the time were the Iron keels, Outward turned hull deck joint (read easily damaged but easy to manufacture) "Systems" don't really make up build quality. I'm thinking more of the glass lay up, design details, . the things you can't easily fix. Iron keels are just a pain in the ...to deal with, bad idea but saves a lot of money in manufacture . Outward turned hull flanges are really inexpensive at manufacture as 1 person can install the joint, not 2. etc. All boats from this time have lots of issues. Heck my Morgan OI 41, has lots of issues. I don't think there is a single piece of marine grade ply in my whole boat! In fact I know that my bulkheads are all Exterior ply as I discovered a piece with the stamp still visible! but then who's to argue, all the bulkheads have lasted nearly 40 years so...

First my Legend does not have an Iron keel. It's lead. That deck joint has handled the North Pacific for some 20 years, and happily came through Hurricane Matt with a 6 foot storm surge. Not heard problems reported.

My point with systems was that I've dug, crawled, and replaced systems that required me to see the inside and under and around the hull and infrastructure. Not seen things that seemed bad. My boat has a better hull design than most for the next 10 years. I've sailed out with a Hunter 376 and it was a dog. When we did bottom paint last year there were no blisters. The glass work from my work inside seems solid and reasonably well laid. I do know that Hunter bashing is popular and easy. It certainly is not without some merit, but I've not witnessed what I've heard. I will respectfully continue to disagree.

[Pizzazz]

There is nothing better than a Hunter bashing thread early in the morning . Hunters are fine boats that have brought (or popularized) many innovations to sailboat design. The sales numbers prove it. The art of successful design is to pick features that provide value to customers and offer them in an attractive package. For example, deck stepped masts. My Hunter 31 has it and I love the cleanliness of the cabin design as a result. The HR31 also has it but it costs 5x as much. The B&R rig us great for going upwind and that model is one of the fastest upwind boats in the class. If you want to go fast downwind use a spinnaker. Iron keel - not ideal but not an issue either. It will never fall off and it will outlive the boat. Most people would not care but will enjoy the sailing performance for the offering price. In other words, instead of bashing a particular brand, identify the key features that are important to you and then find a boat that offers these features at a price point that suits you. It is highly unlikely that any boat build in the last 30 years will have a catastrophic failure. Some have (keels falling off) but the probability is so small that you might as well not think about it when comparing boats.

Going with a top brand such as HR, etc. will give you slightly better odds against catastrophic failure (and better cabinet joinery, less flexing etc. but the price premium is difficult to justify on used boats (it could be 5x for used boats, less for new boats of course).

[Crazy Talk]

This really is a great question, one I've had as well.

For those of us that haven't grown up around boats, the myriad of brands and models is tough to navigate. At first it's easy to think if a company went out of business, it must not have been a very good company and product. But after getting some insight into the business of boat building from those who have been around boats for a long time you realize that's just not the case. It's often, as mentioned above, about the economies of the business and in some cases poor management, not poor product.

An interesting post I read somewhere was in a discussion about Canadian boat builders. One post compared an 80's C&C and a CS, same year, same length, apples to apples. New the C&C went for $10K more than the CS. That was a significant percentage then. Today the CS sells higher than the C&C on the used market. This comparison stuck with me because I had already researched both boats and his comments confirmed what I had been finding.

I won't spend $150K+ for a new or nearly new boat. I'll buy an 80's boat, do the upgrades and have fun. My example above just demonstrates that we have the benefit of the test of time. We can see what's worked and what hasn't because all those before us have done the testing.

The best part is we have a place where we can ask sailors from all over the world, who sailed the boats we know nothing about, and ask them what they think.

All this to echo what others have said - research is the only way. And I'll add, it gets better. I've barely scratched the surface myself, but at least now I know some of the questions to ask.

[TooCoys]

It wasn't my intention to start a brand bashing thread, and I hope that's not what its become.

But as CrazyTalk said, having not grown up around boats, its sometimes hard to navigate through all the different boat manufacturers and designers. Especially because designers names will often show up on descriptions of different brands. The flip side of that is that there's always information on Hunters, Catalinas, and the like... but when there was only 50 boats made of a certain model, it's harder to find anything out.

Not that I'd ever be able to afford a boat where only 50 were made, but you know... nice to be informed and dream!

[hafa]

Originally Posted by TooCoys

...Not that I'd ever be able to afford a boat where only 50 were made, but you know... nice to be informed and dream!

Hence, my earlier post regarding the advantages of mass production boats for the consumer.

If have the time and are proficient at metal, wood and fiberglass fabrication and/or have the resources to hire those that are, limited production or older (40+ years) boats definitely have their charms.

If, however, you, like most, have limited time and/or resources and modest skills, a late model mass production boat may be a better choice.

[Island Time O25]

Originally Posted by TooCoys

It wasn't my intention to start a brand bashing thread, and I hope that's not what its become.

But as CrazyTalk said, having not grown up around boats, its sometimes hard to navigate through all the different boat manufacturers and designers. Especially because designers names will often show up on descriptions of different brands. The flip side of that is that there's always information on Hunters, Catalinas, and the like... but when there was only 50 boats made of a certain model, it's harder to find anything out.

Not that I'd ever be able to afford a boat where only 50 were made, but you know... nice to be informed and dream!

Of the 5 boats I owned in the past 10-12 years one was actually from a very large and well known run of 3,000 made - O'Day 25. Only 10% of them had fixed keels and tall rigs (mine did too) but everything else was probably identical. Another of my boats, a 36 footer, had "only" 84 hulls made but not because of lack of quality but because the company owner trusted a good customer and a friend who on a handshake ordered a dozen or so 47 ft hulls for his charter fleet and as the 6 or so boats were in the final stages of production that "friend" filed for bankruptcy. So the boat maker had to follow as well. Otherwise this brand would probably be still around and known as well (or better) as Sabres or Pearsons, as their quality was way up there.

My 28s were from same maker as the 36 but the production run was about 220 boats. And my first boat, a 27footer, had also a production run of hundreds but the run suffered from inconsistencies at the 3 plants which produced them. And that's IMO is the most difficult one to research and make a decision on as there will be both glowing and damning testimonies and histories for the same brand/model. I lucked out and had the "good" plant version which I picked up for a song.

My point being is a) a long and successful production run is one indicator of quality/price but not the only one. And b) sometimes bad things happen to good boat makers - wrong economic times to be selling new boats, wrong management teams, wrong business decisions, etc. So it really pays to do some research before plunking your $$ into a used 30-40 year old boat. But at the end, as many correctly pointed already - it is for the most part the condition and the level of care overall which should be determinative factor above all. A so-so model well maintained and cared for by its POs will always be a better deal than a great model ruined by the lack of care and maintenance.