Rudder Failures

[barnakiel]

I know that the system used in J's requires new bearings pretty often. Our friends sailed from the US to NZ and they had to replace.

b.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by neilpride

This is drawing come from Nautitech catamarans? my 2 cents, is the only one using the delrin ball at the bottom, the vast majority use a metal bushing at the bottom and delrin at the top, in other words, only Nautitech use this stuff , the ball thing in their catamarans,,,, PS . ahh i see the link info, jefa rudders , ok, could be replacement balls for Nautitech? Cheers,

No, the picture is from an Hanse. Bavaria uses them and my boat (a Comet) too. My system uses Delrin at the bottom and delrin at the top.

Here you have a picture from Jefa. As you can see is a widely spread system.

-- PYI Inc. Max-Prop PSS Shaft Seal Seaview Radar Mounts R&D --

The first picture is also from Jefa:

Sealing systems

[DeepFrz]

I guess that's one way of making sure that the rudder is dropped on a regular basis. Its much easier to inspect when its out.

[smackdaddy]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

If you don't believe that spade rudders suffer a fairly high failure rate then ask yourself why all major ocean racers require a back up rudder system. While all designs of rudders can and do fail spade designs seem to top the poles.

Because they're major ocean racers - and are pushing their boats to the absolute extreme...you know, like seeking out F10+ lows so they can get some speed.

It's never a good idea to compare serious ocean racing with cruising.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by neilpride

Ahhh those math lovers with numbers and numbers, i guess that 1% is nothing for many, but hey ,,,a family of 5 in a gale with a rocky leeshore and that 1% is to much, no???

The number regarding ARC (from a decade more tan 10 years far away) were
not one boat in 100 (1%) but 3,3 boats in a thousand. That proportion become lower on the actual decade. Not saying that it is not a concern but I would have to know if the rudders of those boats were properly maintained. Most are not.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by colemj

So there is only a single bearing in that system? I still don't see why it needs to be replaced every 4-5 years, or why it would cause rudder failures if it wasn't.

Again, I don't know of any boats replacing rudder bearings every 4-5 years, and if this is the case, I think it is a bad design.

Ours have UHMW (maybe Delrin, but they are black) bushings/bearings - one on the bottom of the rudder tube and one on the top. There is no need to ever replace these unless they actually become so worn as to cause rudder post movement.

Mark

You can't see the top of the rudder on the drawing. Probably like mine has another bearing on the top.

A broken rudder bearing or a worn one will cause a considerable post movement increasing all the forces the rudder is subject to. If one broke on an ocean passage the subsequent wear on all system can have catastrophic consequences. When one is worn out but not yet a problem can rapidly become a problem on a long passage since the degradation once it starts to be worn out is quick.

Do what you like with your boat but in Europe on good shipyards they counsel to dismount the rudder each 3 or 4 years for a complete check up. That does not mean that the bearings have to be changed (if in perfect shape) but on my previous boat they found out that they should be replaced after 5 years (the rudder was becoming a bit stiff) and on my actual boat they changed it after 7 years (since new) as a precaution but I don't know if it was already been changed since I bought the boat 3 years ago (then a 5 year's old boat).

[DeepFrz]

Because they're major ocean racers - and are pushing their boats to the absolute extreme...you know, like seeking out F10+ lows so they can get some speed.

Depends on how you interpret the previous remark. If he meant "all major ocean races"... then many of the "races" have have different classes, some that relate well to cruising and in fact are "raced" by cruisers. These races require all entries to have emergency rudder systems tested and on board.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by DeepFrz

Depends on how you interpret the previous remark. If he meant "all major ocean races"... then many of the "races" have have different classes, some that relate well to cruising and in fact are "raced" by cruisers. These races require all entries to have emergency rudder systems tested and on board.

Yes but at least here that means a direct tiller system that will be easily fitted and can substitute the wheel, not a ruder blade, not even on major races.

All modern production boats comes already with that. I believe it is a RCD requirement for class A boats.

[DeepFrz]

The TransPac requires a rudder system, not just an emergency tiller. An emergency tiller is what is required by the EU on all production boats, I believe. I don't have much regard for them.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by neilpride

This is drawing come from Nautitech catamarans? my 2 cents, is the only one using the delrin ball at the bottom, the vast majority use a metal bushing at the bottom and delrin at the top, in other words, only Nautitech use this stuff , the ball thing in their catamarans,,,, PS . ahh i see the link info, jefa rudders , ok, could be replacement balls for Nautitech? Cheers,

Sorry but I cannot edit the post. I believe this is what my boat uses and most production boats too. It is made by Jefa specifically for production boats.

Conical self-aligning bottom bearings type 5BT000

Cheers!

[neilpride]

Cristal Clear Pólux, nothing wrong with the jefa ball bearing, no idea about comet or hanse using this ball, i know Beneteau use only delrin at the top and Jeaneau to, and i agree with the 4 or 5 years inspection with that thin spade rudders in production boats, dont hurt and its cheap insurance .

Back to AP failures, rudder isues, see in this 2 pics how Bavaria and Beneteau fit the ram drive , lag bolts in a glased block of Wood, not a ideal installation, the 2 pic come from a Factory Beneteau ram support trough a bulkhead, LoL!!!

[barnakiel]

I think Jeffa is what I saw in that J-boat.

It is not as uncommon as some wish.

b.

[barnakiel]

We dropped and inspected our rudder, twice in 11 years. I know vast majority never do. Ours is a very plain thing and accessible from the outside. Still, bearings (bushings) were replaced once and they are ready for replacement now.

I wonder why people with far more risky and less inspection ready designs will turn a blind eye to this fact.

This must be something cruising related as we inspected our rudders in our racing boats before EVERY SEASON.

b.

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

Because they're major ocean racers - and are pushing their boats to the absolute extreme...you know, like seeking out F10+ lows so they can get some speed.

It's never a good idea to compare serious ocean racing with cruising.

There is certainly some truth in what you say but ocean racing has been going on for a lot of years and rudder failures have always been with us but not like they have been since the lightly built spade rudders produced these days. Years ago there were no such requirements but over time the rudder failures increased and so did the rules. One of the challenges has been the depth of cord in the rudders, thin rudders are faster but that limits the size of the rudder shaft.

[smackdaddy]

I don't think this has been posted here yet, but it should be. If you do lose your rudder - will you immediately hit the button? Or will you nut up and do everything you can to get the boat home like these guys?



Interesting Sailboats: MIDDLE SEA RACE: AN INCREDIBLE STORY AND SOME GREAT VIDEOS

“We have two reefs in the main and the storm jib up, we saw 48 knots of wind and we have seen waves of over 20 feet. It is pretty tasty out here and we are most definitely concentrating on keeping everyone safe on board rather than boat speed. However, we surfed down a wave and it was too much for the rudder. It was a sickening sight as half of it appeared out of the back of the boat and for us the race is now over. Although Pantelleria is only a short distance away, we cannot steer towards the harbour there, so we are making are way towards Mazara del Vallo on the Sicilian coast and should be their tonight – absolutely gutted would be an understatement.”

When I read that I thought: WOW!!! these guys lost the rudder on the middle of a storm with 50K winds and didn't call for help: no Mayday, not even a Pan Pan but will they be able to make it to port on their own on these conditions?

This is the answer:
"The initial plan was to sail back to Sicily under this configuration but as the sea state worsened they decided to stream the drogue and turn the yacht downwind, using the sails and the drogue for some steerage as they pointed towards Malta."

Yes - even Oysters lose their rudders.