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Old 17-01-2012, 20:13   #46
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Re: On Long Trips - Diesel or Wind ??

The curse to cruising is to be compelled to follow a schedule. That makes you sail in crappy weather and run you motor to keep 'schedule'. We carry 380 gallons in five tanks. Motoring in flat water we make 8 to 9 knots and 4 mpg. The prop is 24 inch 3-blade Hundested adjustable pitch. We will be adding 675 watts of solar (SANYO HIT 225 watt/panel X 3 panels) and an MPPT charge controller this year. All lighting is PWM LED. The genset is 12 KW and the engine alternator is 2 KW with a Balmar charge controller. Our hope is to use as little diesel for charging or propulsion as possible. Big user is refigeration and watermaker; huge user is AC.

Advice about having some light air inventory is spot on. If you have no rigid schedule you can drift on a beam reach to near close hauled and autopilot with solar charge. Perhaps an asymetrical kite and a solent rigged code zero. Depending on time of year and location, you might notice boats motoring as much as 50% of the time.

I think that a good, well balanced prop designed for your vessel, engine, rpm, dispalcement may improve your cruising comfort, speed and efficiency a lot especially if you are using anything like a racing blade.
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Old 18-01-2012, 03:06   #47
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Re: On long trips Diesel or wind ??

Quote:
Originally Posted by conachair
Well, not quite sure I agree with that completely. There's quite a strong argument for saying that if you need to rely on your motor to run away from weather then your boat isn't strong enough and you maybe shouldn't be there in the first place.
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Originally Posted by cat man do View Post
Really?
I think you will find Dave is saying motor when no wind
What has strength of vessel got to do with light air performance?
Yep, really. That was in response to a post about a boat loosing a mast because of not motoring away from bad weather. My point is if you need to rely on an engine to run away then your boat isn't strong enough. Engine use in light airs is pretty much down to the skipper but if you need your engine to run away from trouble offshore then sooner or later you're going to get in trouble.


Quote:
And what if you have no mast and sails?
Mostly sailors around here - who cares?
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Old 18-01-2012, 05:07   #48
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Re: On long trips Diesel or wind ??

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Originally Posted by conachair View Post
My point is if you need to rely on an engine to run away then your boat isn't strong enough.
Once again I think you have misread and or misunderstood what was said.
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Originally Posted by maxingout View Post
I know of many folks who just sat around waiting for wind, and then got clobbered when the next low pressure area came through their patch of ocean. I know of one yacht who lost their mast doing just that thing.
He was talking about motoring in light to no wind, so as not to be in the zone where bad weather was to be.

Most people would think that was a prudent indeed a safe seaman like thing to do, burn a bit of fuel when you cant sail to keep ahead of bad weather so as to avoid putting your boat and crew in a position of possible endangerment.

How would your boat go?
Hardly a light air performer, so I take it you would just bob away waiting for a possible destructive low to catch up and then cop a kicking rather than use the motor reducing risk, fatigue and possible danger?



Quote:
Mostly sailors around here - who cares?
Yeah, ok
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Old 18-01-2012, 07:38   #49
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Re: On long trips Diesel or wind ??

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Once again I think you have misread and or misunderstood what was said.
Don't think so. My whole point is that it's a bad idea to RELY on the engine. If a boat didn't use it's engine to run away and couldn't take the hammering then it shouldn't have been out there in the first place.

If your boat can't take the weather and you are relying on the engine to get you out of there then sooner or later it's going to go wrong, cos sooner of later the engine is going to stop working.



As for my boat, it's tough, it can take it. I don't mind a bit of fast downwind for a few days & I've done the bobbing about bit for days on end before as well. All depends where you are. Stormy is a bit dull as the hatches need to be in to stop it raining in the cabin, becalmed for more thana few days is a more of an unpleasant phsycological experience.
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Old 18-01-2012, 08:42   #50
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Re: On long trips Diesel or wind ??

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Originally Posted by conachair View Post
If a boat didn't use it's engine to run away and couldn't take the hammering then it shouldn't have been out there in the first place.
Its not that a boat cant take a hammering
Its more what sort of irresponsible idiot would put boat and crew through one when he has alternatives to avoid one..

And I bet if something goes wrong you'll expect someone to put their neck on the block to rescue you as well eh

Quote:
you are relying on the engine to get you out of there then sooner or later it's going to go wrong, cos sooner of later the engine is going to stop working.
as ridiculous a comment as saying sooner or later your sails will flog out or your mast will fall down, which, come to think of it is more likely if you choose to hang around and get hammered in that storm you could have avoided.

If only you had turned the key and acted responsibly when you could have.
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Old 18-01-2012, 08:57   #51
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Re: On long trips Diesel or wind ??

Quote:
Originally Posted by cat man do View Post
Its not that a boat cant take a hammering
Its more what sort of irresponsible idiot would put boat and crew through one when he has alternatives to avoid one..

And I bet if something goes wrong you'll expect someone to put their neck on the block to rescue you as well eh



as ridiculous a comment as saying sooner or later your sails will flog out or your mast will fall down, which, come to think of it is more likely if you choose to hang around and get hammered in that storm you could have avoided.

If only you had turned the key and acted responsibly when you could have.
i think your logic is a bit skewed,possably to fit your own agenda.

sooner or later any vessel that cruise's extensively,with or without an engine will encounter bad weather,it's the idiots who haven't prepared their boats for this eventuality.
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Old 18-01-2012, 09:24   #52
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Re: On long trips Diesel or wind ??


Nuff of this.


Quote:
Originally Posted by cat man do View Post
And I bet if something goes wrong you'll expect someone to put their neck on the block to rescue you as well eh
That's out of hand. You know nothing about me , what I've done or what I would do.
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Old 18-01-2012, 09:33   #53
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pirate Re: On long trips Diesel or wind ??

Quote:
Originally Posted by conachair View Post

Nuff of this.




That's out of hand. You know nothing about me , what I've done or what I would do.
Ello, Ello... MultixMono,PowerxSail... don't bite mate..
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Old 18-01-2012, 09:53   #54
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Re: On long trips Diesel or wind ??

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Ello, Ello... MultixMono,PowerxSail... don't bite mate..


Anyway, how many proper storms does anyone ever see? I've never been in one. Decent bad tempered gale maybe, but thats just wet and FAST! The pardeys reckoned on very few in their many thousands of miles, Hal Roth, not many.
Some of this thread makes it sound like you'll get messed up the moment you step offshore if you don't have 80Hp waiting to get you out of there.

Gimme a proper boat any day

Incidently, spending too much time in the bar in brasil over a few weeks I watched about 40% of the boats coming in from south africa with bust engines. These things happen.
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Old 18-01-2012, 10:54   #55
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Re: On Long Trips - Diesel or Wind ??

When I was sailing, I felt the engine was a tool as are the sails ect ect, as such I would use it to get away from BAD storms, if it was possible to do so ! in my mind,it's a capts responsiblty to not only prepare for storms but try to avoid them if possible! how can anybody think otherwise?? all boats are just bubbles at the whim of the seas. I also feel that if you have crew aboard it is even more important to try to avoid storms if possible if I can sail away I will if I must motor sail away I will if I must motor away I will !! don't get me wrong, Ive done my share of storm sailing over the years, but Ive missed a few or at least got away enough to have it a little easier. just my 2 cents Bob and Connie
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Old 18-01-2012, 14:20   #56
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Re: On long trips Diesel or wind ??

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Originally Posted by atoll View Post
i think your logic is a bit skewed,possably to fit your own agenda.
What agenda?
Care to explain?

Quote:
sooner or later any vessel that cruise's extensively,with or without an engine will encounter bad weather,it's the idiots who haven't prepared their boats for this eventuality.
No where did I mention not being prepared
Nor did I even suggest it.

What I did suggest was to avoid trouble when you can, like motoring away from it.
THAT my friend, is what sensible people do.
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Old 18-01-2012, 14:56   #57
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Re: On long trips Diesel or wind ??

Quote:
Originally Posted by conachair View Post
. . . My whole point is that it's a bad idea to RELY on the engine. If a boat didn't use it's engine to run away and couldn't take the hammering then it shouldn't have been out there in the first place.

If your boat can't take the weather and you are relying on the engine to get you out of there then sooner or later it's going to go wrong, cos sooner of later the engine is going to stop working.
i think people are confused because this doesn't really logically follow from the discussion. No one asked the question: "If we have to choose between a boat which is seaworthy, and motoring, shall we choose motoring?" Nor did anyone suggest that he's happy with an unseaworthy boat, on account of the fact that he's willing to motor to get out of the way of bad weather.

In logic this is what is called a false dichotomy. The question was quite different -- whether one prefers to keep the motor off, even if there is little to no wind. Seaworthiness was not part of the question at all.

I think that even if you have a boat as seaworthy as the USS Enterprise, you would still use whatever tools available to you to move away from bad weather, now wouldn't you? I don't think anyone with an ounce of seamanship would keep the motor off out of principle or stubborness, if he weren't making good speed under sail and a deep low weather system was approaching. He would use all the means at his disposal -- including his motor in case it is working -- to avoid it.

And none of this changes the fact that a person who ventures out far from land would prefer a strong, seaworthy boat, to a fragile, unseaworthy one, in view of the fact that a sailor who often ventures far from land will sooner or later have to deal with a bit of weather, even if his boat is a swift sailer and has a powerful, reliable engine. That would be a fairly obvious point, I would think.
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Old 18-01-2012, 15:31   #58
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Re: On long trips Diesel or wind ??

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Old 18-01-2012, 15:36   #59
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Re: On long trips Diesel or wind ??

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That's out of hand. You know nothing about me , what I've done or what I would do.
I know that you wont start your engine to avoid bad weather.
That says all I need to know.
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Old 18-01-2012, 15:37   #60
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Re: On Long Trips - Diesel or Wind ??

Long thread but here is my take ...

How quick do you want to get there? If its slow then you probably won't have to run the momo much ..... if you need to maintain 5 knot average you may need to momo at times ......
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