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Old 08-02-2018, 14:02   #1
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Need Your Advice on Buying Situation in Spain

I consider to buy a boat in Europe, Spain and live approx. 900km away from the Mooring. The boat is a 1989 Moody 376. The offer is listed by 3 brokers/chandlers along the Spanish coast. Intensive contact to the seller broker brings out:

boat registered 2002 - 2017 in the British SSR registry. History before unknown. Info from the broker seller boat was out of water 3 months ago, had survey done, had engine service, upholstery, hull polish, anti-fouling etc. done. For the upgrades exist no invoices because they were done by the seller as a broker/chandler.

Before driving there to see the boat, i asked for a copy of proof of ownership, copy of last survey and VAT document. The seller broker send me a copy of the expired UK registration from 2017. Says his broker partner bought the boat, he can't show me the title of the boat because 1. they don't send docs through the web for privacy protection 2. the original boat title would be in Holland to register the boat under Dutch flag on his broker partner's name who is the legal owner since 2017 3. the UK SSR register would be the proof of ownership.

Since then, he keeps pushing me to come see the yacht and plays the trust me game, we are a reputable business for 25 years in the industry and I would not trust him. He plays the offended expert...

I have a bad stomach feeling with this? Why can't I see the ship docs and where is the sense of seeing a boat or ordering a new survey by a third party if the proof of ownership is not presented.

Opinons? Is the holding back of paperwork normal in the initial phase of boat buying?

Thanks for help and experience.

P.S. the UK ship registry transcript says in the headline explicitly: this document is NOT a legal proof of ownership.
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Old 08-02-2018, 14:27   #2
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Re: Need Your Advice on Buying Situation in Spain

Walk away.

There are thousands of boats for sale.
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Old 08-02-2018, 14:59   #3
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pirate Re: Need Your Advice on Buying Situation in Spain

SSR is not proof of ownership.. even less if its expired..
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Old 08-02-2018, 15:13   #4
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Re: Need Your Advice on Buying Situation in Spain

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Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
SSR is not proof of ownership.. even less if its expired..
yes, broker says as a registered broker company they have 8-9 months time to delay the new registration. New flag will be Dutch and is in process, that's why they can't show me any ownership documents. So basically, here the owner is a broker and the agent who is in contact with me does surveys for him. The first bought it from the UK family last year, the second one surveyed it for him to know what needs repair...that's their side of the story. for me this means, both know the boat, I don't.
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Old 08-02-2018, 15:24   #5
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Re: Need Your Advice on Buying Situation in Spain

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Originally Posted by pantarhei View Post
yes, broker says as a registered broker company they have 8-9 months time to delay the new registration. New flag will be Dutch and is in process, that's why they can't show me any ownership documents. So basically, here the owner is a broker and the agent who is in contact with me does surveys for him. The first bought it from the UK family last year, the second one surveyed it for him to know what needs repair...that's their side of the story. for me this means, both know the boat, I don't.
I live in Spain.
So many boats with no problems. Why are you spending time on this one?
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Old 08-02-2018, 15:25   #6
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Re: Need Your Advice on Buying Situation in Spain

Cheers mate,

You sound like a friend of mine..! Iím sorry that your trip to see her didnít go as planned.

Reading your words it already seems you have a bad gut feeling. I trust your judgement on the bow, maybe you should listen to your judgment here too. If youíre buying a boat...did you get to go see her? What did you think?

Nevertheless, all of this can still be cleared out. And the boat can actually be sound. But I wouldnít entertain the buy much in my mind without the paperwork straightened out. And a third party survey would give you some piece of mind.
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Old 08-02-2018, 15:36   #7
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Re: Need Your Advice on Buying Situation in Spain

I know I didnít help you much, but Steady Hand can.

Hereís a thread for you:
And if you have to sail her all the way across the Atlantic, iíll join you!

Boats Less Than $30K Recent Noteworthy Finds
Boats Less Than $30K Recent Noteworthy Finds
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Old 08-02-2018, 16:10   #8
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One thing I do not understand.. if he is selling the boat why re flag it.. its not needed and could have sat there till sold as is with the UK flag.
Seems a lot of trouble to go through re flagging when you don't know what nationality will be buying it.
I sailed from Malta to Fig da Foz with an unregistered boat.. when asked for papers I produced the bill of sale and French deregistration doc's.
No questions or hassle's.. they were more concerned with the question of insurance.. which I had.. along with a large UK flag at the stern.
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Old 08-02-2018, 16:17   #9
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Re: Need Your Advice on Buying Situation in Spain

Proof of ownership means nothing. I have bought many boats and NEVER once asked for proof of ownership (same with cars, and houses.) I bought another boat recently with no one, not even the broker knowing how, to whom, or where the boat was registered, yet, it is now titled and registered to me via the US Coast Guard.

That is what a contract is for!

If you like a boat, go look at it. If you still like it, make an offer and put some money on the table to show you are serious, with a signed contract that protects your interests, time, and money. Once accepted, do a survey. If you accept the survey, it is up to the seller to provide a clear title so the boat can actually be sold, according to the conditions of the contract.

Do you really think brokers DO NOT want to sell boats. They do not make any money until they complete the sale.

If your gut instinct is telling you that the people you are dealing with are scammers, then walk away. If you simply lack knowledge of how the buy/sell process works, then you will have a difficult time making a purchase.

FWIW: I would NEVER provide any potential buyer of any property I am selling with a copy of my ownership title. One because it opens me up to scammers, and two because it is ridiculous.

Distance is not an excuse either. My last purchase was conducted over 2400 miles (3850Km) with a cloudy title issue.
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Old 09-02-2018, 01:31   #10
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Re: Need Your Advice on Buying Situation in Spain

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Originally Posted by weavis View Post
I live in Spain.
So many boats with no problems. Why are you spending time on this one?
it sounds like a good offer, inspections, refits, maintenance, price etc. and there are not many Moodys on the market. Just the contradicting statements of the broker, confusion with the paperwork is the other side. but maybe good offer and bad paperwork go hand in hand
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Old 09-02-2018, 01:57   #11
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Re: Need Your Advice on Buying Situation in Spain

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Originally Posted by pantarhei View Post
it sounds like a good offer, inspections, refits, maintenance, price etc. and there are not many Moodys on the market. Just the contradicting statements of the broker, confusion with the paperwork is the other side. but maybe good offer and bad paperwork go hand in hand
Naah. Good offers come sometimes because the boat does not have the necessary paperwork.

I too cannot understand why it is being taken off the UK register now. The new owner might want to register in Liberia or USA or something.

Once I bought a vessel with scant proof of VAT having been paid. NEVER again...took 2 years to sort out and still had to pay something..

Is life.

I tend to walk away from complications and scenarios where it is not straight forward. Thats just me.

Good luck with your decision.
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Old 09-02-2018, 02:01   #12
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Re: Need Your Advice on Buying Situation in Spain

Moody 376 boats for sale - YachtWorld

https://www.theyachtmarket.com/boats...ats/moody/376/

Moody 376 Boats for sale in Spain - YachtWorld UK

lots more

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10% of conflicts are due to different opinions. 90% by the tone of voice.
Raise your words, not your voice. It is rain that grows flowers, not thunder.
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Old 09-02-2018, 02:04   #13
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Re: Need Your Advice on Buying Situation in Spain

https://www.ebay.co.uk/

Type in moody yacht. do the same for each countrys ebay..

We bought a Fisher motor sailer from ebay a while back... a good deal.

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10% of conflicts are due to different opinions. 90% by the tone of voice.
Raise your words, not your voice. It is rain that grows flowers, not thunder.
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Old 09-02-2018, 04:47   #14
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Re: Need Your Advice on Buying Situation in Spain

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Originally Posted by SailsWithFists View Post

FWIW: I would NEVER provide any potential buyer of any property I am selling with a copy of my ownership title. One because it opens me up to scammers, and two because it is ridiculous.
I can understand this. It is legitimate though to ask the seller having the documents in original ready for review together with the boat when I take the effort to drive 2.000km. i am not going there to have a coffee and listen to his trust me stories.
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Old 09-02-2018, 04:55   #15
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Re: Need Your Advice on Buying Situation in Spain

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Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
[FONT="Comic Sans MS"][SIZE="3"]One thing I do not understand.. if he is selling the boat why re flag it.. its not needed and could have sat there till sold as is with the UK flag.
It Spain and Portugal the maritime authorities conduct so called 'vistorias' i.e. a technical inspection of the boat, safety, navigation equipment etc. then they provide it to a category specifying the navigation radius it may navigate in e.g. 5 miles off the coast. Of course, the owner has to pay the inspection and things that might now be in shape as they should. The UK, Holland, Belgium do not require any inspection. Registration via online, no questions asked. One assumption is, the owner wants to avoid the Spanish inspections but having the boat in the water. In this case probably.
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