Need Your Advice on Buying Situation in Spain

[pantarhei]

Originally Posted by where.is.mike

Cheers mate,

You sound like a friend of mine..! [emoji6] I’m sorry that your trip to see her didn’t go as planned. Reading your words it already seems you have a bad gut feeling. I trust your judgement on the bow, maybe you should listen to your judgment here too. If you’re buying a boat...did you get to go see her? What did you think?

haha, thanks man. I trust you also and if we f.... we don't have to pay the bill ;-) that's the difference. I walk away from the deal, there is too much about the paperwork that I don't understand and probably would have to deal with when buying this boat.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by pantarhei

It Spain and Portugal the maritime authorities conduct so called 'vistorias' i.e. a technical inspection of the boat, safety, navigation equipment etc. then they provide it to a category specifying the navigation radius it may navigate in e.g. 5 miles off the coast. Of course, the owner has to pay the inspection and things that might now be in shape as they should. The UK, Holland, Belgium do not require any inspection. Registration via online, no questions asked. One assumption is, the owner wants to avoid the Spanish inspections but having the boat in the water. In this case probably.

These inspections only apply if you are registering the boat in Portugal/Spain.. as when I had to register a Hurley 22 when I sold it to a Portuguese guy.. he would only buy it if I removed it from SSR and re registered it in Portugal.
This involved the inspection by Policia Maritimo (Fig da Foz), sufficient life jackets for 4 people, flares, HH VHF, torch, knife and a quick lift to check hull and rudder.. and then a visit to the Port Captains office with proof it had been removed from SSR and filling out the forms and paying the fee's for Portuguese registration.
However my Van de Stadt which I brought here from Malta was unregistered after I sent away to Brest for deregistering and it remained that way till the new owner, an English guy, took over the boat.. 2 and a half years after it arrived in Figuera da Foz.
It was insured with Pantaenius from the day I bought it till it changed hands, flew the British flag and did not need inspecting.

[SailsWithFists]

Originally Posted by pantarhei

I can understand this. It is legitimate though to ask the seller having the documents in original ready for review together with the boat when I take the effort to drive 2.000km. i am not going there to have a coffee and listen to his trust me stories.

I still disagree. What you want to know is if the property can be legally transferred to you and at what cost.

I am not sure how it works in Europe, but US and Canadian dealers can hold ownership without title/registration unlike individuals are required. This is because they are reselling property with which they hold temporary title, eliminating the requirement to register the property in a personal manner. Is this the case here? Who knows?

I will agree that knowing the status of VAT is quite important overall, but I still think you are putting the cart before the horse.

Are you dealing with an actual Broker? Do they have a listed boat to sell in which you are interested? If the answer is yes to both of these, then you must come to the realization that the boat can legally be transferred to a new owner because THAT is the business of the Brokers. They are not in the business of spending money to list boats that they cannot legally transfer.

If you are unsure of VAT or some other real issue with the vessel, then AFTER you look at the boat, make your offer contingent upon "proof of VAT paid" "produced within 20 days," or something similar. It is the Broker's job and duty to provide clear title to the purchaser upon completion of the sale.

Like I said before. I purchased a boat 3800Km away from me in a foreign country. After my offer was made, and after my survey was completed, and after I spent thousands of dollars, and after the offer was accepted, we determined that the boat was owned by a foreigner from a third country, and was incorrectly registered in a fourth country, and that VAT was due. Yet I was not worried, because I was protected by the contract, and I understood that it was the responsibility of the Broker to deliver a clear title, and the responsibility of the seller to pay VAT in this case. I paid the balance, and the broker paid the VAT out of the seller's proceeds (as well as other fees not previously paid by the seller) so that a clear title could be delivered to me; and it was.

It is your responsibility to conduct your due diligence - that is specifically your inspection, surveys, sea trial, and confirmation of equipment lists. It is the responsibility of the broker to deliver clear title to the buyer upon execution of a valid contract. So far as I can see, VAT is the only issue in this case, and you can protect yourself from this contingency in the contract.

[Clivevon]

Why not contact the previous owners - the UK family? Talking to them might help you? They wouldnt have any axe to grind & should be able to tell you a lot about the boat.

[PAX]

With regards to Spain purchase-
Did so about 8 years ago, first caution is the surveyor (Spanish) was a crook, did a very poor job of his work, over charged and then did not submit a complete survey...be careful of who and what you get on that score.

He came recommended by the US West Coast Broker who had the boat listed, was paid in advance.
From there- The boat had US documentation, had been there beyond the allowed period to avoid paying a VAT (Euro tax). Work around was to sail to a non Euro country to clear it out. We made the P/S transaction as an “Off Shore” purchase. The previous owner made things a bit more complex because he was a resident of CA which also came looking for tax on the sale, again off shore saved the day.
Coming back to the States was a pain, but we had all the paperwork done by the US Pros so it only took the better part of a day to clear in RI after the charming US customs, Coast Guard and img etc had their fun rummaging through the boat...
BTW had looked into Ocean transport services, as I recall about $15,000 for our 41’ picked up in Med, dropped in MD, took about 10 days. We opted to sail her home… via Canaries and Cape V and Bermuda….
good luck

[Alita49DS]

One can be too careful.

What I would suggest, if you are concerned, is pay a small amount to have another broker act on your behalf and get cover that way. As well as peace of mind.

I am in Gibraltar on our boat so have more than a bit of knowledge about Spain.

If you write to me privately I can give you details of someone I would trust to act on your behalf.

BTW whilst the SSR is no proof of ownership the Ship Registry is. You get an Official number. ON. That is why you need an ON to get a Martine mortgage.

[pantarhei]

Originally Posted by SailsWithFists

I still disagree. What you want to know is if the property can be legally transferred to you and at what cost.

I am sure, the broker can legally transfer the ownership to me. Sure. That's what he wants. Sell the boat.

What I want to know is, what comes with the package after I am legally the owner. Why does he not disclose the previous owner to me, why this confusion with the Dutch flag, the not present boat title and showing me an expired UK SSR registry as proof of ownership, where it says in caps in the headline "This is NOT a proof of ownership." for me whether the broker has no clue or he thinks I don't.

But I found the previous owner via their website now. Will see what she says about this company's reputation and the boat.

[ReneJK]

Neither the UK SSR nor the Dutch registration are legal 'titles of ownership' the only legal Dutch title is if/when its registered with 'Het Kadaster' , that registration is needed for mortgages etc. any other Dutch registration is not a title of ownership but rather an unofficial document (much like the UK SSR) as a lot of countries and marina's what to see some sort of registration



The only title of ownership we (Dutch) have is the sales contract if the yacht is not registered through 'Het Kadaster' and since registration is not mandatory here in Holland very few people register through the Kadaster



For the Dutch the single most important document is the original invoice where VAT is specified and shown as 'paid' (ie added to the total amount) , the 2nd most important document is the sales contract that shows you have legally bought and paid the boat

[pantarhei]

Originally Posted by ReneJK

For the Dutch the single most important document is the original invoice where VAT is specified and shown as 'paid' (ie added to the total amount) , the 2nd most important document is the sales contract that shows you have legally bought and paid the boat

Thank you everybody for the answers and inputs. All of them were very useful.

I stepped back from the purchase for now. The way I went was to find the former UK owner in Ireland. Fortunately, she works for a charity. The 74 old lady was so incredible helpful that she told me the entire story and faxed me copies of the contracts. She bought the boat in 2002 from the same Spanish broker that she sold it to in 2017. And yes, only the sales contract exists. NO VAT invoice for the EU. The broker sold the boat in 2002 to her for 78.000 EUR and bought it back from her last March for 13.000 EUR. She hardly used it and before 2002 it laid unused for 4 years after arriving from Scandinavia. The broker did some work on it and offers it to me now for 48.000 EUR. Nice deal for him. Make up your own opinion about this business.

Why he makes up stories about the documents is obvious. The only ones that exist show the sales/purchase amounts. And I should not see them of course.

Learning: Always talk to the previous owner.

[Anders]

You verified that the broker owns the boat.
You still dont want to buy it.
Why?

[gjordan]

Is there no such thing as TITLE INSURANCE in Spain???? Suggesting that it is OK to buy houses, boats , cars etc, without some official title search can turn into a nightmare. Is there any sort of licensing for brokers in Spain??? In the US with a state registered boat you can get title, but it is no guarantee that there are not liens against the boat. With a federally registered boat (documented) when you get title, it has to show any liens. If the person doing the lien hasnt recorded it with the feds, it doesnt carry over. That is how it was explained to me by a broker that was not trying to sell me anything. I am interested in the buying process in Europe a nd so far , not very comfortable. _____Grant.

[ReneJK]

Originally Posted by gjordan

Is there no such thing as TITLE INSURANCE in Spain????

I have never heard of anything like that in Europe

Originally Posted by gjordan

Suggesting that it is OK to buy houses, boats , cars etc, without some official title search can turn into a nightmare. Is there any sort of licensing for brokers in Spain???

Most likely there is licensing for brokers in Europe , but I cant answer this question

Originally Posted by gjordan

In the US with a state registered boat you can get title, but it is no guarantee that there are not liens against the boat. With a federally registered boat (documented) when you get title, it has to show any liens. If the person doing the lien hasnt recorded it with the feds, it doesnt carry over. That is how it was explained to me by a broker that was not trying to sell me anything. I am interested in the buying process in Europe a nd so far , not very comfortable. _____Grant.

Europe is not the US , registration is not mandatory in some countries and not always is the mortgage / liens / noted in the registration



Get wording in the sales contract that the boat is free of liens , debt, mortgages etc and if it turns out that the boat does have liens / debt / mortgages that seller is responsible for any and all costs



Get a good maritime lawyer when in doubt ?

here are the RYA steps for buying a boat

http://www.rya.org.uk/SiteCollection...20A%20BOAT.pdf

[John L. Cwierz]

My dear friend,
I happened to live in Spain, no way, it is not the time to buy anything in Spain, Can't you see that this country is going terribly down? This country is in a state of dissolution, it is literarily dissolving, day after day. The interested parties are ruining the country, ruining the people, and, of course, the corruption is at its best. Everyone here is corrupt, and, by so, the country, the people don't realize this, but it is going into a civil conflict. The government is corrupt and it is not doing what it is supposed to do, enforce laws and treat the lawless as such. You better look out about Spain, even the judges are corrupt and you, as a person do not have any laws to defend you.
Please advise your wife otherwise, because the love for her country is not what it used to be. I have ample experience now with the laws, and, my, my, the new laws of shutting a person's mouth are in vigor, and you can't even cough.
Forget about Spain, please, forget about Spain. It used to be great, but now only satanic truths are on the daytable, that means, all lies. Please be careful. J.

[weavis]

As a resident of Seville, I have had my issues with the law regarding property purchase. For every major transaction I make, I employ an Anglo Spanish company based out of the UK with one of the directors that lives here. They work on the principle that the law will not be enforced if a problem is found unless the complainant is a family member or of use to someone.

Brits who bought homes here in Spain,have had to join together for a class action law suit to address the negligence of the courts in redressing the iniquity of the protection laws against unscrupulous local companies. It is what it is.

Whilst not as dramatic a post as another here, I would tend to limit my major purpose to known companies only, and have the legal team go through EVERY item on the agreement and then some more. There is a great tendency to put every complaint to be dealt with at some stage in the future... and never get round to it.

I had an apartment in Mallorca overlooking the sea with a legal stipulation that no building could be erected over a certain height to obstruct my view. I watched an apartment building get started below me, and I got a strange feeling that it was time to move. I put my apartment on the market and it was sold in 2 months.

I supplied the buyer with all the documentation for the restrictions and everything. 14 months later, 4 extra floors were erected and a major complaint from the residents went into the council. All complaints were rejected. A little research indicated the building was Russian owned and to this day only a few apartments are used. I guess money has to be parked somewhere and the local mayor is known for helping business and himself

This goes on everywhere in the world. Spain has it to an art form. You have to fight, not to reject wrong things, you have to fight for what is legally yours to have.

I have no interaction with Spanish boat brokers. I have experience with boat brokers. It is my experience that if you deal with Spanish business, be prepared to deal hard and also realise that in many cases the law will not help you even if you are entitled to something. You will have to take the case to the maximum place and only then will a grudging help be offered. It will cost you a lot of money and time and patience.

There has been experience with some ethical Spanish business that went over and above their remit to be fair and honest. I asked why they did so and the answer I got is "Spanish companies are difficult to deal with, we are trying to fix this problem."

I still love Spain. I just am aware of the issues.

[John L. Cwierz]

It is just a shame dear Weavis that you are only aware of this situation, I happened to have lived through a real situation where I was stopped at a car control deal, and in that occasion had the policeman attacked me. Afterwards I was accused of running over his partner, who happened to be his wife, and all of this false, had no witnesses and I was going to be jailed for four years, but, just because I lied, because I accepted all responsibilities, then my jail sentence has been commuted to 1 and halve year, and so I didn't go to jail. You better find out what is the real law situation in Spain before they get you involved.
The situation in Spain really is critical, yes, very critical. In Spain the law is a lie, and being that insufficient, they will lie on top of the last one. As the lies grow, they don't became truths, but it is even more difficult to determine that they are lies. I was telling a friend of me about what happened to me, but in order to get their real feeling, I was relating it in third person, until my fiend told me that he didn't believe it. THEN I TOLD HIM, YOU SOB, IT HAPPENED TO ME. ONLY THEN HE BELIEVED ME, AND EVEN THOUGH, I HAVE MY DOUBTS.