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Old 30-10-2014, 13:01   #31
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Re: Multihull Size in a Mono Hull Package

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Yes, that's why they are called condo cats. They are unbeatable at that, I mean offering space while at anchor or at a marina or port. But there are a lot more that pass their time at the marina or port than at anchor (all year long) and there the space remains but the price will go up 50%, 60% or more regarding a monohull with the same size. Even a bigger monohull will pay less, not to mention there are places where the cats are simply not welcomed due to lack of available space.



Most cruisers cannot afford a Gunboat and regarding performance cats they don't offer the same kind of accommodations and space as condo cats, at least in what regards affordable sizes. Also while a performance 30ft can be already an offshore boat, a cat needs to be substantially bigger to offer the same degree of seaworthiness, specially if it is a light performance cat.

In the end it is all a question of money and personal preference even in what regards sailing.
Depends where you are. Europe seems to be the primary place where cats pay extra for a slip. In the USA, it's pretty rare for a marina to charge extra. At anchor there is no comparison. Of course, no one said they were cheaper on a per foot basis to buy or slip.

True, gunboats are expensive and provide less living space for the size but you were the one emphasizing performance and if that is really important to you, it's a world of difference to get even close to what a performance oriented cat can perform. There are similarly expensive performance cruising monos but they won't even get close to those speeds. Not to meniton even the condomarans can hit double digit speeds in many cases. There are less expensive performance oriented cats but that's not what the typical cruiser is after.

A 30' mono that meets the traditional offshore tank definition will be slow with a tiny cavelike living space. For a comparable seaworthy cat look at something like a catalac for a built like a tank boat with much more space. While not a speed demon, on anything but a dead upwind passage, I'll bet on the catalac to get thier first. On the dead upwind passage, I'd make it a wash who gets thier first as most of the traditional offshore monos don't point that well either.
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Old 30-10-2014, 13:54   #32
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Re: Multihull Size in a Mono Hull Package

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...

True, gunboats are expensive and provide less living space for the size but you were the one emphasizing performance and if that is really important to you, it's a world of difference to get even close to what a performance oriented cat can perform. There are similarly expensive performance cruising monos but they won't even get close to those speeds. Not to meniton even the condomarans can hit double digit speeds in many cases. There are less expensive performance oriented cats but that's not what the typical cruiser is after.
That is not true that an offshore performance monohull cruiser is expensive: Look at the prices of the First, the Salona, Elan or Dehler and you will have fast boats that will not cost much more than a main market big production cruiser.

Regarding speed on real cruising conditions have a look at the results of the last ARC and you will see that most performance cruisers of about the same size beat the performance cats. You have just to look, that is what I have made out of curiosity last year.

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...
A 30' mono that meets the traditional offshore tank definition will be slow with a tiny cavelike living space. For a comparable seaworthy cat look at something like a catalac for a built like a tank boat with much more space. While not a speed demon, on anything but a dead upwind passage, I'll bet on the catalac to get thier first. On the dead upwind passage, I'd make it a wash who gets thier first as most of the traditional offshore monos don't point that well either.
I don't know what you call light a fast performance monohull with offshore potential, I and most that know those boats talk about boats like this one:



Here you have one sailing offshore at 2 digit speeds:



There was one last year making the ARC. Much faster than many much bigger cats, including some performance ones and I am not talking about old designed Catalac but about modern fast performance bigger cats.

I am not saying that a performance cat is not fast just saying that in the end what is important are personal preferences including living space and joy of sailing/speed.
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Old 30-10-2014, 14:15   #33
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Re: Multihull Size in a Mono Hull Package

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That is not true that an offshore performance monohull cruiser is expensive: Look at the prices of the First, the Salona, Elan or Dehler and you will have fast boats that will not cost much more than a main market big production cruiser.

Regarding speed on real cruising conditions have a look at the results of the last ARC and you will see that most performance cruisers of about the same size beat the performance cats. You have just to look, that is what I have made out of curiosity last year.



I don't know what you call light a fast performance monohull with offshore potential, I and most that know those boats talk about boats like this one:



Here you have one sailing offshore at 2 digit speeds:



There was one last year making the ARC. Much faster than many much bigger cats, including some performance ones.

I am not saying that a performance cat is not fast just saying that in the end what is important are personal preferences including living space and joy of sailing/speed.
Those performance mono's won't keep up. You have to go really high end (with the price that goes with it) to even pretend to keep up. (high performance cats akin to a gunboat)

Your ARC data supports my point that cruisers aren't about top end performance. Once you take that out, it's hard to beat a condomaran. You were the one who suggested performance was a key issue.

Lightly built performance monos aren't generally considered offshore material (just like small lightly built cats aren't). That may or may not be true but once you talk about 30' monos that are offshore, traditional wisdom is a heavily built full keeler and they tend to be slow with limited space, so a catalac would be a very comparable boat and quite capable offshore while still performing better.

Now if you want to consider lightly built monos as offshore capable, you have to accept the lighter and faster cats as offshore capable. There isn't a production cruising cat that is easy to flip when sailed by a reasonably competent crew and they will typically outperform an equivilent lightweight mono.
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Old 30-10-2014, 15:21   #34
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Re: Multihull Size in a Mono Hull Package

Having owned both in the 35 to 38 foot range I will say this:
They are very different. The comment on claustrophobia is dead on. In a choppy storm, do you want you rock side to side or front to back? The cat has more privacy and hang out room. It has more storage and due to draft goes to shallower places. If you are by yourself it is a lot different than a couple or having guests.

So what is it you want to do, how fast do you want to travel?
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Old 30-10-2014, 15:37   #35
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While I was writing my earlier reply I missed the whole who is faster thing.
If you take two: mono and cat, same length, same design purpose, similarly experienced crew, the cat wins the race. Seen an America's Cup mono going toe to toe with the multi's? Maybe sailing directly into the wind but I still don't think so. I used to race formula cars and heard a million times that under the right conditions.....this car could win. Like boats its about power, drag, and handling. The trade offs are esthetics. Speed, deck, storage, people numbers, or the traditional tube. Both have a purpose and pluses. Which is more common knock downs or capsizes? Are you more likely to die in a plane crash or your bathroom?
The comment about dollars per square foot is probably the best I have heard. Spend a month living on board with one or more other people and see the value of those square feet.
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Old 30-10-2014, 20:09   #36
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Re: Multihull Size in a Mono Hull Package

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Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
....

Lightly built performance monos aren't generally considered offshore material (just like small lightly built cats aren't). That may or may not be true but once you talk about 30' monos that are offshore, traditional wisdom is a heavily built full keeler and they tend to be slow with limited space, so a catalac would be a very comparable boat and quite capable offshore while still performing better.
Performance cruisers, being them multihulls or monohulls are light boats and depending on the size or purpose, many are designed for offshore work. One of those light monohulls designed for offshore work is the Gunboat, that you have already talked about....did you never notice it was light?


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...
Now if you want to consider lightly built monos as offshore capable, you have to accept the lighter and faster cats as offshore capable. There isn't a production cruising cat that is easy to flip when sailed by a reasonably competent crew and they will typically outperform an equivilent lightweight mono.
No, that is not so. A light monohull can be more easily knocked down by a wave or a sudden gust of wind than an heavier and bigger monohull, but if knocked down they have the ability to rise again easily and even if rolled they can get up to their feet. On a multihull a knock down is the end of the story, it does not need to roll because when knock down to 90 it will not return. That's why a light multihull has to have a bigger safety margin regarding a light monohull and that means that for offshore work they have to be bigger.

On the RCD, that was studied by a big team of multinational NAs, a light performance monohull can pass their safety requirements for offshore work (Class A) with a bit over 23ft (it has to be a damn good one in what regards stability) but a light performance multihull will only manage to do that with 32ft and even so I only know off trimarans being able to do that. Light Performance cats have to be bigger than that to pass class A requirements.
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Old 30-10-2014, 20:31   #37
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Re: Multihull Size in a Mono Hull Package

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While I was writing my earlier reply I missed the whole who is faster thing.
If you take two: mono and cat, same length, same design purpose, similarly experienced crew, the cat wins the race. ...
Yes, you are right about that if that regards racing and the racers are experts, even so the number of abandons due to capsizes is much bigger. In what regards cruising, a monohull, that is not sailed typically by a big or expert crew, can have a much bigger margin of error: You broached, not a problem, you are knocked down for excessive use of sail area or a strong gust? Not a problem, it can even be fun. On a multihull is the end of the story and that means that the boats have to be sailed much more conservatively by a non expert crew.

There are out there some very quick multihull performance cruisers for charter and invariably they will not charter without a skipper while that problem does not exist with monohulls even very fast ones (if you are a reasonable sailor you can charter a Vor 70).

I like monohulls and multihulls alike and I am waiting with big interest the beginning of the biggest race with monohulls and multihulls, this one:

Interesting Sailboats: ROUTE DU RHUM THE WORLD'S BIGGEST SAIL RACE?

If it goes like usual you are going to see that the 50ft trimarans are slightly faster than 60ft monohulls, but not all and if they get bad weather, just very few if all will manage to be faster. You will see also that the rate of abandons due to capsizes and breakage is hugely superior on the 50ft multihull fleet.

Put on them average sailors and they will quickly capsize the multihull while even with big errors, they will manage to go along on the monohull.

This difference of easiness in exploring the boat near the limits by an average sailor, is, in my opinion, the main reason for the Multihulls being generically slower than monohulls of the same type and size on the last ARC. The last ARC was a hard one.
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Old 30-10-2014, 21:02   #38
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Re: Multihull Size in a Mono Hull Package

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Those performance mono's won't keep up. You have to go really high end (with the price that goes with it) to even pretend to keep up. (high performance cats akin to a gunboat)

Your ARC data supports my point that cruisers aren't about top end performance. Once you take that out, it's hard to beat a condomaran. You were the one who suggested performance was a key issue.

Lightly built performance monos aren't generally considered offshore material (just like small lightly built cats aren't). That may or may not be true but once you talk about 30' monos that are offshore, traditional wisdom is a heavily built full keeler and they tend to be slow with limited space, so a catalac would be a very comparable boat and quite capable offshore while still performing better.

Now if you want to consider lightly built monos as offshore capable, you have to accept the lighter and faster cats as offshore capable. There isn't a production cruising cat that is easy to flip when sailed by a reasonably competent crew and they will typically outperform an equivilent lightweight mono.
I don't quite understand why catamaran promoters have to keep insisting that cats are faster and safer than mono's, despite the results of offshore passages like the ARC and the Caribbean 1500. Maybe they think that if they publish their propaganda enough times people may believe it.
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Old 31-10-2014, 13:51   #39
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Re: Multihull Size in a Mono Hull Package

I'd just like to add that I am not looking for an opinion on which design is better, I think each has it's positives and negatives. When we begin sailing it's going to be a family thing. With 2 boys, the wife and I are going to need as much space as we can get for our money. My main goal is to make sure I am getting as much usable space as possible while still maintaining comfort and sailing ability as much as possible. Financially, a 40'-45' used cat is probably going to be where we end up, but if you take that same rough dollar figure, you can stretch it to a much larger mono, I'm guessing around 55'-65'. I just want to make sure I know as much about each as possible. Obviously there are way to many variables to make hard and fast rules, but hopefully I can glean some general guidelines and signs to watch out for when comparing a larger mono to a cat.

We are going to charter some before we get too far along so we will gain a ton of insight there. I have some experience with monos. specifically a Beneteau around the 50' range, and I like them, but the wife is leaning towards a cat which I am OK with as well. Honestly I kind of like the lagoons and the other big condo cats, they fit the kind of sailing we like to do. We aren't into racing or heading out in bad weather, though speed and the ability to survive rough sees is important. Though I will say that in my very novice opinion, most of the condo cats and monos built in the last 20 years, as long as properly maintained and piloted, should be able to handle some pretty good seas in relative safety. I would wager most sinkings of any boat type are due to pilot error rather than limitations in boat design.

Tom
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Old 31-10-2014, 14:33   #40
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Re: Multihull Size in a Mono Hull Package

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Another factor is where does your sailing experience lie? Because if you've 20 or more years in one, then you toss that out when you shift, and may have to live with never becoming a great sailor of the new type.
Not true. It really doesn't take long to adapt to how much easier it is to sail a cat.


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FWIW, I'd be reluctant to undertake a circumnavigation in most cats I've seen.

Ann
I'd say the same of monohulls. I wouldn't willing go for any longer than a daysail on one.
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Old 31-10-2014, 14:42   #41
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Re: Multihull Size in a Mono Hull Package

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I don't quite understand why catamaran promoters have to keep insisting that cats are faster and safer than mono's, despite the results of offshore passages like the ARC and the Caribbean 1500. Maybe they think that if they publish their propaganda enough times people may believe it.
Why keep going on about a rally where you can motor all the way? The results are just as likely to reflect who prefers to keep sailing vs who resorts to motoring first.

My recent experience sailing down Cape York (and yes we've SAILED all the way) has been that the guys in monos are pretty quick to start motoring if the wind drops or goes forward. That's if they even had their motors switched off.

So a "race" where you can motor doesn't say much to me about sailing ability.
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Old 31-10-2014, 15:08   #42
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Re: Multihull Size in a Mono Hull Package

Well we just left the Med after 2 seasons and I can assure you everyone motors there equally but you are right race results are a waste of time if you are allowed to motor and that's the reason the rallies are not real races.
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Old 31-10-2014, 15:11   #43
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Re: Multihull Size in a Mono Hull Package

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I'd just like to add that I am not looking for an opinion on which design is better, I think each has it's positives and negatives. When we begin sailing it's going to be a family thing. With 2 boys, the wife and I are going to need as much space as we can get for our money. My main goal is to make sure I am getting as much usable space as possible while still maintaining comfort and sailing ability as much as possible. Financially, a 40'-45' used cat is probably going to be where we end up, but if you take that same rough dollar figure, you can stretch it to a much larger mono, I'm guessing around 55'-65'. I just want to make sure I know as much about each as possible. Obviously there are way to many variables to make hard and fast rules, but hopefully I can glean some general guidelines and signs to watch out for when comparing a larger mono to a cat.

We are going to charter some before we get too far along so we will gain a ton of insight there. I have some experience with monos. specifically a Beneteau around the 50' range, and I like them, but the wife is leaning towards a cat which I am OK with as well. Honestly I kind of like the lagoons and the other big condo cats, they fit the kind of sailing we like to do. We aren't into racing or heading out in bad weather, though speed and the ability to survive rough sees is important. Though I will say that in my very novice opinion, most of the condo cats and monos built in the last 20 years, as long as properly maintained and piloted, should be able to handle some pretty good seas in relative safety. I would wager most sinkings of any boat type are due to pilot error rather than limitations in boat design.

Tom
I fully agree with the charter for testing. I do that when I have any doubts and you can believe that in the end you will be quite sure of your choice.

In what regards accommodations it seems to me that what you want is a big living area, three large cabins and a big deck area. In what regards monohulls it seems to me that the Sense 55 fits the bill:







It is possible that you and your family would be satisfied even with the Sense 50:







Besides lots of space both boats offer a big storage area, sail well are easy to sail solo and come with a computerized docking system that makes it very easy. They also sail with very little heel (15/17).

Regarding cats here you have two popular cats on that range, the Helia 44 and the Leopard 44:




All boats are not faraway in price and depending on option should cost between 550 000 USD and 600 000.

Not saying in any way that you would not prefer a cat but that would be just a matter of taste, not a matter of space: Taste in what regards sailing and sailing motion, taste about the type of space. Charter both type of boats is a great idea to decide what you and your family prefer.

After testing the monohull and the cat please keep us posted.
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Old 31-10-2014, 15:17   #44
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Re: Multihull Size in a Mono Hull Package

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Why keep going on about a rally where you can motor all the way? The results are just as likely to reflect who prefers to keep sailing vs who resorts to motoring first.

My recent experience sailing down Cape York (and yes we've SAILED all the way) has been that the guys in monos are pretty quick to start motoring if the wind drops or goes forward. That's if they even had their motors switched off.

So a "race" where you can motor doesn't say much to me about sailing ability.
You must have got a very lucky run there. With prevailing southerlies and heading south all the way that is a sod of a sailing trip. I have never been that lucky.

Coops.
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Old 31-10-2014, 15:34   #45
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Re: Multihull Size in a Mono Hull Package

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Why keep going on about a rally where you can motor all the way? The results are just as likely to reflect who prefers to keep sailing vs who resorts to motoring first.

....

So a "race" where you can motor doesn't say much to me about sailing ability.
Why do you say that? They say for each boat the quantity of diesel that was wasted. Go to their page and have a surprise: Cats for the same size can carry more load than the monohulls and that includes diesel tankage. Yes go there and see by yourself who wasted more fuel, the cats or the monos?
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