More "cruisers" violate borders and more on S/V Zatara

[Tillsbury]

Originally Posted by RaymondR

Do the mad, impetuous fools running things think that a modern industrialized society which is highly dependent upon mass production and transportation of many of the things vital to survival can stick it's head in the sand and wait out the virus once it has become a world wide phenomena?

They might be a lot of things, but they’re neither mad nor impetuous.

Things vital for survival are easily obtained locally. Anything else can be imported, as usual. The only thing stopped is international travel, not shipment of goods. Although it’s disappointing not to be able to travel internationally, it’s hardly a critical necessity. Yes, if other countries don’t get their acts together, there’s no reason that New Zealand couldn’t stay like this for a good few years.

People still travel with quarantine: crew for at least eight Hollywood films have already arrived here and are getting on with their jobs. Ditto the overseas crews for the America’s Cup next year. I’m sure there will be more.

[RaymondR]

Originally Posted by Tillsbury

They might be a lot of things, but they’re neither mad nor impetuous.

Things vital for survival are easily obtained locally. Anything else can be imported, as usual. The only thing stopped is international travel, not shipment of goods. Although it’s disappointing not to be able to travel internationally, it’s hardly a critical necessity. Yes, if other countries don’t get their acts together, there’s no reason that New Zealand couldn’t stay like this for a good few years.

People still travel with quarantine: crew for at least eight Hollywood films have already arrived here and are getting on with their jobs. Ditto the overseas crews for the America’s Cup next year. I’m sure there will be more.

They talked us into shutting everything down to "flatten the curve" so that the intensive care facilities in our hospitals were not overloaded. Somewhere along the line this appears to have morphed into "zero new cases". The hospitals ceased carrying out elective surgery so that the beds would be available for corona patients. Other than a very few road traffic accidents and the usual heart cases the hospitals have become deserted. Many people have waited in discomfort for years for the elective surgery. They fine people at a birthday party $24,000 total whilst turning a blind eye to thousands participating in a protest about something which happened in another country a hemisphere away. And I could go on and on identifying their foolishness.

So they're still fools and impetuous but cunning enough to allow essential services to continue whilst destroying a good part of the service industries.

[Kastaway]

Zatara left NZ and sheltered at Great Barrier Island during level 4 shut- down on the proviso that they didn’t go ashore. Essential travel only for the entire country. Local authorities checked from time to time that they were complying but a lot of trust was afforded them. They decided it would be ok to go ashore for a family trek anyway, and for some reason recorded the event - way to go guys. I haven’t seen the blog but a pretty long bow to draw if now in Tongan waters are claiming the race card. Perhaps Tonga don’t trust them not to do the same again - why would they ?. It’s not an American thing and it’s not a cruising thing but I don’t think these guys are great ambassadors for the rest of us.

[NaClyDog]

Originally Posted by RaymondR

The counter argument is why should people be subjected to a different set of rules framed for a different set of circumstances when perfectly adequate, time tested, provisions are already in place?

How is that an argument? You want to override the rules of a sovereign nation because you know better.


That really isn't how things work. Do you allow guests in your own home to make the rules because they know better than you (regardless if they are right or wrong)? In my house at least, that is a great way to be asked to leave and barred forever.

[NaClyDog]

Originally Posted by Kastaway

Zatara left NZ and sheltered at Great Barrier Island during level 4 shut- down on the proviso that they didn’t go ashore. Essential travel only for the entire country. Local authorities checked from time to time that they were complying but a lot of trust was afforded them. They decided it would be ok to go ashore for a family trek anyway, and for some reason recorded the event - way to go guys. I haven’t seen the blog but a pretty long bow to draw if now in Tongan waters are claiming the race card. Perhaps Tonga don’t trust them not to do the same again - why would they ?. It’s not an American thing and it’s not a cruising thing but I don’t think these guys are great ambassadors for the rest of us.

Shhhh, you can't believe everything you see on TV or the internet. /s



Those asking what laws or rules they have broken conveniently ignore what doesn't fit the desired narrative.


It will be very interesting to see how this plays out but I'm still of the opinion none of the offending vessels will face serious consequences. Nothing more severe than a pat on the wrist.

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by NaClyDog

Shhhh, you can't believe everything you see on TV or the internet. /s



Those asking what laws or rules they have broken conveniently ignore what doesn't fit the desired narrative.


It will be very interesting to see how this plays out but I'm still of the opinion none of the offending vessels will face serious consequences. Nothing more severe than a pat on the wrist.

Maybe so, maybe not...
I had biosecurity laws change on me once while on passage... but they were tightening not loosening.... got a figurative pat on the wrist which involved quite a bit of my time ...

Hmm... sailing into *loosening* restrictions.. different game.

Now... I don't get out much and have never been..by sea.. to Fiji but I can say do not mess with the authorities in Australia, NZ, Chile , Argentina or the Falklands .... in the Falklands you get into all sorts of strife by simply failing to fly your courtesy ensign... Chile and Argentina? Loss of boat, fines of up to $US50K, kicked out of the country and told to never come back....
Oz and NZ are pussies by comparison...

Their countries... their rules...

[Exile]

Originally Posted by StuM

Either Q, QQ or QL. Never L by itself.


In most countries (including Tonga) it's:
(1) The quarantine signal is–
(a) from sunrise to sunset–
(i) for an oversea vessel that is free of known quarantinable disease but is subject to quarantine–the flag known as Q flag under the 1931 International Code of Signals, being a yellow flag of six breadths of bunting; and
(ii) for a vessel that has had a case of quarantinable disease on board more than five days previously or on which there has been unusual mortality among rats–the Two Flag Signal QQ; and
(iii) for a vessel that has had a case of quarantinable disease on board less than five days previously–the Two Flag Signal QL, being the flag known as Q flag over L flag under the 1931 International Code of Signals; and
(b) from sunset to sunrise, a signal comprising a red light over a white light, the lights being not more than 2m apart, of such a character as to be visible on a clear night all round the horizon for a distance of 3km, and placed as nearly as practicable amidships.
(2) The quarantine signal from sunrise to sunset shall be shown at the mast-head or where it can best be seen and above the highest deck structure.

Who needs testing kits when just a few (dead) rats onboard will do?

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by fivecapes

Lima on Diamond Princess

I know in the navy we hoist Lima alongside as a radhaz warning - that radars or somesuch are radiating. It may be a navy-only rule, but I suspect it comes from industry standard or other regulatory body.

Stu - I think you need to update your copy of InterCo - 1931 is a little out of date. My copy is 1969 ed, revised in 2003. Q and QQ remain, but QL has changed. Maybe Tonga should revise their rules too.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

I know in the navy we hoist Lima alongside as a radhaz warning - that radars or somesuch are radiating. It may be a navy-only rule, but I suspect it comes from industry standard or other regulatory body.

Stu - I think you need to update your copy of InterCo - 1931 is a little out of date. My copy is 1969 ed, revised in 2003. Q and QQ remain, but QL has changed. Maybe Tonga should revise their rules too.

Mainly just curious, but how did QL change?

[ewishki]

Originally Posted by wingssail

I have not watched his vlog, maybe there were lies evident in those videos, but there is a difference in spin in the two following statements:

Zatara: We decided to stop in Minerva before continuing on to our next destination to wait out some weather. We checked in 12 miles outside with the Tongan Navy and got permission to stay over until the next weather window which is looking like Thursday. They where super nice and professional and we had a very good chat over the radio.

Nuku' alofa Times:The Whitaker family have been trying to circumnavigate their world, but are now held at Minerva Reef, watched by a Tongan patrol boat.

If the Times account is accurate it seems to me like Zatara left out an important fact in their account, that they were being "held", not simply welcomed.

Not saying Zatara is 100% accurate, but why do you give the media such confidence. Honestly, the media hasn't exactly been honest either in my experience. They love to spin stuff to make drama where it really doesn't exist. Todays media is paid via clicks, shares and views. The more controversy and drama they create, the more they get of that. Granted this isn't a mainstream media source so maybe not the same. Who knows. This whole thread is basically theory anyway. No one truly knows the truth except the entities involved.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by Exile

Mainly just curious, but how did QL change?

It's a manoeuvring signal meaning "You should go astern".

QL

You should go astern.

QL 1

You should go slow astern.

QL 2

You should go full speed astern.

QL 3

You should keep going astern.

QL 4 You should keep your engines going astern.

The Pratique signals in section 9:

Code Meaning Reference

CHAPTER 2

SECTION 9: INTERNATIONAL HEALTH REGULATIONS

PRATIQUE MESSAGES

ZS

My vessel is “healthy” and I request free pratique . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Q

*

I require health clearance . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .QQ

*

By night a red light over a white light may be shown, where it can best be seen, by vessels requiring health clearance.

These lights should only be about 6 feet apart, should be exhibited within the precincts of a port and should

be visible all around the horizon as nearly as possible.

ZT

My Maritime Declaration of Health has negative answers to the six Health Questions.

ZU

My Maritime Declaration of Health has a positive answer to Health Question(s)… (Health

Questions are indicated by complements 1-6).

ZV

I believe I have been in an infected area during the last thirty days.

ZW

I require Port Medical Officer.

ZW 1

Port Medical Officer will be available at (time indicated).

ZX

You should make the appropriate pratique signal.

ZY

You have pratique.

ZZ

You should proceed to anchorage for health clearance (at place indicated).

ZZ 1

Where is the anchorage for health clearance?

I have a doctor on board. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

AL

Have you a doctor?. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .AM

Get a copy here: https://msi.nga.mil/Publications/ICOS

[NPCampbell]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

In Summary, yachts must apply and be approved before embarking toward Fiji, approval is not automatic and each application will be specifically assessed.

Fiji doesn't have the authority to dictate what direction you sail or where you embark to. They only have the authority to deny you entry into their country.

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

Applications MUST BE THROUGH AN AGENT, yachts must have insurance and meet other normal border, visa and Bio-security requirements.'

In the penultimate youtube from Zatara they would appear to have ignored this requirement for Fiji despite knowing that it was their most likely destination... Tonga not wanting them.

Is there something stopping someone from arranging an agent while 12 miles offshore? I don't believe a visa is required for US citizens (and most other countries) for short term stays in Fiji. They were in Fiji before NZ, I would assume their insurance is still good. Biosecurity checks are required in many places. Who says they aren't complying?

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by NPCampbell

Is there something stopping someone from arranging an agent while 12 miles offshore?

Well there is the need to send the results of a clean PCR test within 48 hrs of departing.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

Stu - I think you need to update your copy of InterCo - 1931 is a little out of date. My copy is 1969 ed, revised in 2003. Q and QQ remain, but QL has changed. Maybe Tonga should revise their rules too.

I've got the same copy as you. But that's beside the point.



I didn't say that the various Quarantine Regulations were based on the current ICS, I said they were based on the 1931 version That's because the legislation in many countries was drawn up when that was the current version and the Legislation in those countries hasn't been changed.



If you look at my early post wher I quoted the PNG Regulations, you will see they specifically say:" Q flag over L flag under the 1931 International Code of Signals"

I actually went out onto the intertubes to find a copy of the 1931 Regulations to see what it said.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by NPCampbell

Is there something stopping someone from arranging an agent while 12 miles offshore?

Yes, the previous bit which you misconstrued which says you have to apply before embarking towards Fiji.
When you are 12 mile offshore, it is a long time after embarking on the trip.